Religions sell at retail, what is free at the wholesale level

[jamesj]

God communicates with any being that will listen.
Why is this questioned?
Why do some people argue so vehemently against the idea that God still talks to individual people?

An excellent example of what we have done to avoid having a continual personal conversation with God exists in the Old Testament, I.e. Samuel 8:6, (NIV version) But when they said, "Give us a king to lead us," this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the LORD. 7 And the LORD told him: "Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. 8 As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. 9 Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will do."
10 Samuel told all the words of the LORD to the people who were asking him for a king. 11 He said, "This is what the king who will reign over you will do: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. 12 Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. 15 He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. 16 Your menservants and maidservants and the best of your cattle [b] and donkeys he will take for his own use. 17 He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. 18 When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, and the LORD will not answer you in that day."
19 But the people refused to listen to Samuel. "No!" they said. "We want a king over us. 20 Then we will be like all the other nations, with a king to lead us and to go out before us and fight our battles."
21 When Samuel heard all that the people said, he repeated it before the LORD. 22 The LORD answered, "Listen to them and give them a king."

What happens when you lead a life where you actually carry on a conversation with God?
God always tells/shows you the unvarnished truth about yourself and expects you to grow in a positive direction. Continuing to listen to God is the hardest work you will ever do, because you are continually faced with the truth about yourself and your actions. This causes you to continually strive to improve upon what you have done in the past.

The easy way to live is to have an intermediary between yourself and God so you can believe the lies that other people tell you. This allows you to have a false deluded view of how you really are, (an Ego); thus avoiding the hard work involved in continually striving for self improvement based on a true view of reality.

This is why religions successfully sell at retail one of the things in creation that is free at the wholesale level.

[Rogue Cardinal]

That's all fine and dandy. But it would seem that the lesson is do what God would have you to do.

When one analyzes what God would have you to do....assuming that we are talking about the moral side of God.....Jesus.....the answer is simple. Forgive people and do what is right. I don't need a God to tell me that. I don't need to impress a God by doing that.

It is free at the wholesale level because it's common sense. Now is everybody going to do that? Of course not. Not even Christians can do it. The Jews had close contact (supposedly) with God and not even they could do it.

All people have to be led to God. God RARELY seeks people out, according to the Bible. If one has to be led to God one must wonder how accessible God REALLY is.

What happens if God talks to you? I don't know he doesn't talk to me anymore than he talks to you. Would I listen. I'd like to think that if the big man was talking to me I'd listen.

So God doesn't talk to me anyway....so anything I do is my own. It's free of God. If I am bad it's my fault. If I am good it's my fault. If I do what is right, it's because I choose to do so.

In the end none of that will even matter because I am supposed to have faith in something that doesn't talk to me, hasn't shown itself to me, I can only know exists because some other PERSON told me so. I really have the same amount of reason to believe in God as I do in Buddha, Allah, and the Tooth Fairy. Doesn't make for a good reason to believe.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Rogue Cardinal In the end none of that will even matter because I am supposed to have faith in something that doesn't talk to me, hasn't shown itself to me, I can only know exists because some other PERSON told me so. I really have the same amount of reason to believe in God as I do in Buddha, Allah, and the Tooth Fairy. Doesn't make for a good reason to believe.

All fine for you.

The only problem I have is when you expect everyone else to follow your viewpoint by calling your view the only "rational" choice or some other misnomer.

[Jack]

The only problem I have is when you expect everyone else to follow your viewpoint by calling your view the only "rational" choice or some other misnomer.

At the risk of going slightly off-topic, I really want to respond to this comment.

It has been posted repeatedly, almost becoming a mantra. It appears to allude to an atheistic agenda to convert the whole world to free and objective thinking as some sort of evil plot accomplished by some sort of force or expectation.

I don't know what has caused this paranoid and misinformed opinion, but I'd like to put it to rest. I mean, it really doesn't do anyone any good to harbor false notions, and the notion that atheists have some sort of secret, sinister intention to make godless zombies of the human race is a big one.

Can you understand we are both on the same side, just with different motivations? We both want people to be free to think for themselves. By accusing us of wanting to convert the world to our viewpoint tells me that you and I both resent the same, we resent others trying to force us to accept their opinion as fact. Amen.

It's only what motivates us to value the freedom to think independently, free of force or persuasion, where we differ.

So don't worry. We aren't intent on making everyone think like us. We do want people to be free to think for themselves. Is that an evil intention?

[Rogue Cardinal]

Quote by: HelioPrime All fine for you. The only problem I have is when you expect everyone else to follow your viewpoint by calling your view the only "rational" choice or some other misnomer.

No not at all.

I am not bothered by religion. I actually like a lot of things that come from or a part of religion. I never said in the above that you should be like me. I don't care if you are like me or if you are like you. It doesn't matter to me.

If you are good person and productive in society and you attribute that to God as to why you are that way.....fine. Just don't take offense if I am as good of a person and as productive in society and tell you that I do it on my own for myself without God.

If you want to be good because you fear that you will go to hell if you don't.....fine with me as long as you're a decent person. Just don't persecute me and tell me that I am wrong for my beliefs when you can't prove me wrong at all.

If you MUST know what it is that pisses me off about religious people....it's their inability to study up on their religion and truly own it. The vast majority of Christians I come into contact with (and man I live in the bible belt for sure) don't know half as much about there Bible or religion as I do. They take some parts literally and brush off other parts as allegory and basically cherry pick what they want to like.

I turn on the TV and watch tele-evangelist turn God into a get rich quick scheme.

It's outrageous. It pisses me off. Religion......should be a wonderful thing. It's so corrupt and filled with modern day Pharisees and Sadducees that it's become an abhoration....that surely if there is a God......he couldn't remotely be pleased.

the apostles didn't get....and 2,000 years later....the vast majority of Christianity still doesn't get the message of Jesus.

As a human being.....I think Jesus (assuming he ever lived) was a right cool dude. I dig his message and I personally think it's great. Then I look at his flock.....and hang my head. It's sad.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Jack So don't worry. We aren't intent on making everyone think like us. We do want people to be free to think for themselves. Is that an evil intention?

Only when you already have a destination in mind at the end result of that "free" thinking.

That destination is being an atheist. Your not telling people to become one but your asking them to apply various standards you approve of with the intent that they will use them the same way you have and become and atheist.

One such obvious point is upbringing. Most atheist (on the forums) think a child should not be raised in the religion of the parents and be allowed to explore religion only if he/she had the desire, with religion itself carefully removed from public and in private. It's something theists won't agree with for several obvious reasons of which the foremost is it is against the basic principle to spread the word of God.

The issue in that case is the difference in though. Both theists and atheists feel they hold the high ground on how to raise a child.

[Jack]

Your not telling people to become one but your asking them to apply various standards you approve of with the intent that they will use them the same way you have and become and atheist.

No, I'm not, nor is any atheist, asking anyone to apply my, our, standards. You're confusing us with theists. We own our standards, they are ours. We use them to measure our world, the same way everyone else uses their own standards.

This accusation has been maintained so doggedly (yet never supported by example) that it's lost its impact. I have no idea what has caused this needless concern that we expect anyone to think just like us. I certainly have never claimed to think the same as every other atheist. So why would I bother trying to get the world to think like I do when I can't even get other atheists to think just as I do.

Nope. Expecting everyone to agree with and follow your personal convictions is what religions do and one of the things about religions some atheists find most objectionable.

[Aussie]

Quote by: HelioPrime One such obvious point is upbringing. Most atheist (on the forums) think a child should not be raised in the religion of the parents and be allowed to explore religion only if he/she had the desire, with religion itself carefully removed from public and in private. It's something theists won't agree with for several obvious reasons of which the foremost is it is against the basic principle to spread the word of God.

No no no! We want you to stop indoctrinating them at an age where they cannot make an informed decision. Let them make the decision to join once theyre old enough to make that decision for themselves. I'm so glad my mother did this because it allowed for a balanced view and I guess the Catholics lost out on that one (i'd say this would be one of the main reasons for childhood indoctrination, god forbid they could actually choose to be a member of that religion).

[Rogue Cardinal]

Quote by: HelioPrime Only when you already have a destination in mind at the end result of that "free" thinking. That destination is being an atheist. Your not telling people to become one but your asking them to apply various standards you approve of with the intent that they will use them the same way you have and become and atheist. One such obvious point is upbringing. Most atheist (on the forums) think a child should not be raised in the religion of the parents and be allowed to explore religion only if he/she had the desire, with religion itself carefully removed from public and in private. It's something theists won't agree with for several obvious reasons of which the foremost is it is against the basic principle to spread the word of God. The issue in that case is the difference in though. Both theists and atheists feel they hold the high ground on how to raise a child.

I don't have an issue if you raise your kids in your religion. Just do a good job of it.

I used to be Christian. My wife for very good reason has always been agnostic. We agreed that we would expose our children to various religions and ideas and let them decide for themselves whenever they felt appropriate to be whatever they thought they should be.

now in this case....my daughter might spend time as a Methodist. Later become and Atheist. Later become a Catholic.....where ever her heart takes her.

You might view that as crazy. That's fine. That's your opinion. But to me....if there is a cosmic voice then she will be able to communicate with him....it...whatever and FIND it.

Of course many religions take a lot of heat over indoctrination. And from my perspective rightly so. Would you be a Christian if not for your parents? If you were born in say Iran would you still be a Christian? I'd bet you'd be a studying the Divine ways of Islam. Why is that? Indoctrination. PLain and simple.

I'm not about to tell you how to raise your kids. Do what you will I wish the best of luck. But as I see it truth is just evident. Something is or it isn't. If my child tells me that they are Christian. I say fine. Be a good Christian and learn your religion and do right by it.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Aussie No no no! We want you to stop indoctrinating them at an age where they cannot make an informed decision. Let them make the decision to join once theyre old enough to make that decision for themselves. I'm so glad my mother did this because it allowed for a balanced view and I guess the Catholics lost out on that one (i'd say this would be one of the main reasons for childhood indoctrination, god forbid they could actually choose to be a member of that religion).

It's not called indoctrinating it's called teaching and it's how the word of God is spread. It doesn't just spring into people's minds. ( If it did why would we be having this debate)

It's you applying your rules and opinions. As an atheist you think if religions is so real people should seek out God on their own. That's YOUR opinion but you sugar coat it in fancy words and sarcasm and act like every rational person should be able to see that is the best way to raise a child.

[Rogue Cardinal]

Quote by: HelioPrime It's not called indoctrinating it's called teaching and it's how the word of God is spread. It doesn't just spring into people's minds. ( If it did why would we be having this debate)

So what you are really trying to say....is that if no one taught us about God.....God would cease to exist? The only way we would know about God is the Telephone game? that would explain why religion is so messed up.

Again....if you were born in Pakistan, would you be a person studying Islam or a Christian? Be honest? Now think about WHY that is.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Rogue Cardinal So what you are really trying to say....is that if no one taught us about God.....God would cease to exist? The only way we would know about God is the Telephone game? that would explain why religion is so messed up. Again....if you were born in Pakistan, would you be a person studying Islam or a Christian? Be honest? Now think about WHY that is.

What part of "going forth and spreading the word" is not understood? That is why the word is spread by through teachings.

And Islam still worships God. Just a version changed by the culture it came from. And no, I wouldn't have been born in Pakistan, or China, or anywhere else.

[Rogue Cardinal]

Quote by: HelioPrime What part of "going forth and spreading the word" is not understood? That is why the word is spread by through teachings. And Islam still worships God. Just a version changed by the culture it came from. And no, I wouldn't have been born in Pakistan, or China, or anywhere else.

Say what you are really trying to say is that without spreading the word, no one would even know about God, because no one even knows God. Someone told me so I told someone else.

You are trying to dodge the bullet here.

Islam is NOT your religion. Yes they worship a derivative of your GOD....Jesus is just a profit. Therefore either you are wrong or Islam is wrong. How in the world can I tell which one is right? Should I do it on popular vote? There are more Christians thus you should follow God?!?!

You are still dodging the other bullet. IF....yes I know hypothetical......but IF you were born in a county such as Japan, do you think you'd be Buddhist, Shinto, or Christian? Seriously think about it. The possibility of you being a Christian is NOT impossible....just highly improbable. Why is that?

Seriously....you'd be whatever religion your parents TAUGHT....or INDOCTRINATED you into becoming.

Let's put the shoe on the other foot for a second. Let's do a turn about. I would say that even though my child has the FREEDOM in my house to become part of religion....any religion....(provided it's not some crazy snake handling thing)....in all likelihood she will probably end up agnostic or atheist. Why? Here example. Her parents are both agnostic. Now it is very possible she could grow up someday and meet a nice Christian boy and change to his religion. That's all well and fine with me.

My point is that we are all generally a product of our environment. You started out a Christian simply because your parents were. IF your parents would have been anything else....you would be to. Since it's part of your upbringing it's a very deep part of who you are.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Rogue Cardinal Say what you are really trying to say is that without spreading the word, no one would even know about God, because no one even knows God. Someone told me so I told someone else. You are trying to dodge the bullet here.

There is no bullet here. The word has to be spread. It's how it evolved from just a few christians amid a world of pagans and unbelievers. That's how christianity spread in its various forms including Islam you could even say.

Someone telling you is how you learn things. You don't just gain knowledge on your own. Good luck teaching physics to kids who were never told how to do math or science

Islam is NOT your religion. Yes they worship a derivative of your GOD....Jesus is just a profit. Therefore either you are wrong or Islam is wrong. How in the world can I tell which one is right? Should I do it on popular vote? There are more Christians thus you should follow God?!?!

Islam still worships God among other similarities. But this thread isn't about Islam anymore is it?

It's now about your opinion what if religion is real there should be ONE religion.

You are still dodging the other bullet. IF....yes I know hypothetical......but IF you were born in a county such as Japan, do you think you'd be Buddhist, Shinto, or Christian? Seriously think about it. The possibility of you being a Christian is NOT impossible....just highly improbable. Why is that?

There is no reason for you (an atheist) to suppose anything hypothetical like that. There is no evidence for you to say I can't assume I'd always be born here. So no, I see no reason to assume and answer a question I know wouldn't happen.

Let's put the shoe on the other foot for a second. Let's do a turn about. I would say that even though my child has the FREEDOM in my house to become part of religion....any religion....(provided it's not some crazy snake handling thing)....in all likelihood she will probably end up agnostic or atheist. Why? Here example. Her parents are both agnostic. Now it is very possible she could grow up someday and meet a nice Christian boy and change to his religion. That's all well and fine with me.

Well then all the more power to you. Not all atheists seem to be like you however. They would rather a world where your child didn't meet a christian boy because he along with every other child is never raised under religion but sent out and allowed to choice if he/she wanted religion.

[Matt W]

Let's get back to the topic, please.

DO NOT RESPOND IN THIS THREAD TO THE PRECEDING MESSAGE. Please contact a member of the staff privately if you have any questions.

[Rogue Cardinal]

Quote by: HelioPrime There is no bullet here. The word has to be spread. It's how it evolved from just a few christians amid a world of pagans and unbelievers. That's how christianity spread in its various forms including Islam you could even say.

So what you really mean is that it was OK to spread the vast majority of the message at the point of a sword....because globally....that's pretty much it. The other way that it was done was going to places that had never even heard of God....or YOUR God and teaching them among other things.....about God. Through what means? Indoctrination. Crazy huh?

Someone telling you is how you learn things. You don't just gain knowledge on your own. Good luck teaching physics to kids who were never told how to do math or science

You know.....the neat thing about physics.....is when I do teach it....I don't have to say a word. Now granted I am dealing with elementary kids....but the cool thing is they learn through discovery. They observe phenomena and THINK about what they SEE. Thus they draw conclusions. We can then TEST those conclusions to see which kiddoes are right and show which kiddoes needed a little more help in getting the concept. Very little dialogue has to even happen. I literally can say, "Today we are going to do an experiment. Tell me what you observe." and from there they take notes and talk with their peers. Because like a lot of things in the REAL world......these things are observable.

Mathmatics is also grounded in very concrete things. You COUNT things because you SEE things. Sure there are abstract forms of math but they are all rooted in very concrete concepts that again are very much observable. There are millions of methods to PROVE things mathematically. Whether it be merely working a problem or using some type of modeling. All concrete. All proveable. Something you cannot do with ANY religion.

Religion would tell me that somehow I am part of the cosmic universe and one with it. I am linked to God spiritually. Yet there is no evidence of a soul in our body. There is no model to prove God exists. There is no Math or science that can prove he exists either. There is a book. Hell I have lots of books. Some are better than others.

Islam still worships God among other similarities. But this thread isn't about Islam anymore is it?

So what. They worship God. IF there IS a God...there should be one God. Your statement is rather heretical by Christian standards. Their book....though shockingly similiar to your old testament and the Torah.....is still not your religion. So whom is right? Your's are their's? There can be only one God. Everything else....is just rubbish right?

It's now about your opinion what if religion is real there should be ONE religion.

That's not my opinion. That's what EVERY religion teaches. You are quite the heretic. What happened to "Thou shall have no God's before me?" You are going to part with the Ten Commandments?

There is no reason for you (an atheist) to suppose anything hypothetical like that. There is no evidence for you to say I can't assume I'd always be born here. So no, I see no reason to assume and answer a question I know wouldn't happen.

You rae uncomfortable with the question because you realize the implications should you admit that I am right. Which I am. I will take your inability to honestly answer the question as a victory.

The question has NOTHING to do with the evidence of where you could have possibly been born. But fine.....let's have some fun. Let's say you were born in the same exact place you were born. But now your parent happen to be Jewish. Are you taught Judaism or Christianity? I guess you'd be a Jew.......why? Becasue your parents taught you to be a Jew. If your parents were CAtholic.....you'd be a Catholic because that's what they TAUGHT you to be. IF your parents thought that you should marry 4 wifes....you'd do it....because that would be your reality....as constructed by your parents for you.

Well then all the more power to you. Not all atheists seem to be like you however. They would rather a world where your child didn't meet a christian boy because he along with every other child is never raised under religion but sent out and allowed to choice if he/she wanted religion.

[/quote]
Well all atheist wouldn't be like me.....because as I have stated.....even in this thread....I'm an Agnostic. There is a difference.

Again I have no issue with you being religious. My issues are what you don't know about your own religion and the false pretense a lot of people in general operate under and the fact that they do not understand the message of Jesus. They are hypocrites and they don't get it.

BTW I don't think the majority of Atheists would have any issue with their child marrying a good christian person.....emphais on the word GOOD. It's not the religion that makes the person. I know a lot of religious folks that act like heathens. I know a lot of religious people that are down right awesome people. It really has nothing to do with the religion.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Rogue Cardinal So what you really mean is that it was OK to spread the vast majority of the message at the point of a sword....because globally....that's pretty much it. The other way that it was done was going to places that had never even heard of God....or YOUR God and teaching them among other things.....about God. Through what means? Indoctrination. Crazy huh?

Putting words in my mouth? Way to play up the stereotypical militant atheist that so many of you decree and say doesn't exist.

And btw secularism has been spread by the gun and sword as well. Feel free to call Stalin and Mao theists but worshiping the state still counts as forceful denial of religion by the government and promoting secularism by threat and force.

So what. They worship God. IF there IS a God...there should be one God. Your statement is rather heretical by Christian standards. Their book....though shockingly similiar to your old testament and the Torah.....is still not your religion. So whom is right? Your's are their's? There can be only one God. Everything else....is just rubbish right?

Why can there be only one true version of God? Is christianity right? Because there are different religion then is that a reason nobody should be religious? I'm guessing everyone should see it that way just like you? Your opinion is the "standard" to follow?

That's not my opinion. That's what EVERY religion teaches. You are quite the heretic. What happened to "Thou shall have no God's before me?" You are going to part with the Ten Commandments?

For someone who says he hates people who don't know the bible yet promote it your falling into your own trap.

Does EVERY religion really reach it is the one and only way to follow? Really? UU? What about eastern religions? or jews for jesus?

Thanks for showing you lack just as much knowledge as the people you attack and base your generalized opinions off your bias rather than fact.

You rae uncomfortable with the question because you realize the implications should you admit that I am right. Which I am. I will take your inability to honestly answer the question as a victory.

Nope. I believe I was born into a catholic family for a reason. There is no reason to assume anything else. If other people are born into atheists families then that's how the world works.

It's just a mind game on your part. Your going to say "what about kids born into atheists families, do they deserve to go to hell! Well clearly god doesn't exist if people can be born and not be christians."

Thats your bias. Not mine.

Again I have no issue with you being religious. My issues are what you don't know about your own religion and the false pretense a lot of people in general operate under and the fact that they do not understand the message of Jesus. They are hypocrites and they don't get it.

Says the person who just said all religions teach just that path is the only one path.

Perhaps some more reading up on other religions would help?

[Jack]

Putting words in my mouth?

Which you've done every time you presume to know that atheists are demanding everyone follow their way of thinking.

Thanks for showing you lack just as much knowledge as the people you attack and base your generalized opinions off your bias rather than fact.

Pot, meet kettle.