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bishop · Jul 24, 2004, 03:17 pm

one of the focal issues in the evangelical movement is their fascination with the book of revelations.. their conviction that the end is near seems to fuel their desire to become the purest christians possible.

do you think that the evangelicals secretly wish for the apocalypse (which they term as the second coming - to spin it in a positive light) to happen?

m5lange1 · Jul 24, 2004, 03:42 pm

I think some do. I think some who are not evangelicals also wish for the apocalypse.

Lots of people think 'they' are the only ones who are going to 'rise up'.

My opinion is, if there is an apocalypse and/or an afterlife, I think that thre will be quite a few christians as surprised as the Muslums who were expecting their virgins.

M5

bishop · Jul 24, 2004, 05:40 pm

according to this article, there's an estimated 20 million "christian zionists" - aka evangelicals or cultists..

i also remember that many "end of the world" type books were published before 2000. and after 9/11, there are reports of many people using the internet to find combinations of christian doctrine (primarily the book of revelations) and apocalytic prophecies.

LDS · Jul 25, 2004, 12:20 am

Quote:

(which they term as the second coming - to spin it in a positive light)

You dont think the return of our savior will be a positive day?

**Pooeypants** · Jul 25, 2004, 05:09 am

Who's saviour?

bishop · Jul 25, 2004, 10:28 am

Quote:

You dont think the return of our savior will be a positive day?

because when that happens, so will the apocalypse.

unlike evangelicals, i'm not a fatalist.

LDS · Jul 26, 2004, 10:45 am

Quote:

Originally posted by bishop,

because when that happens, so will the apocalypse.

unlike evangelicals, i'm not a fatalist.

All you can do is make sure you are living your life such that you have no need to fear.

bishop · Jul 26, 2004, 11:27 am

i do.. but this is besides the point of my post.

wishing for the apocalypse and wishing for the second coming are the same thing. one is spun in a negative light, the other in a positive light. the end is good, but the means are a tragedy.

maybe evangelicals despise atheists, people who aren't christian and people who aren't christian fundamentalists so much that they feel they deserve to be punished from god?

some could say that we're in the 7 years of tribulation right now and that bush is setting the stage for the battle of armageddon - which they view as more than a good thing, they view it as a necessary thing.

http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm/articles/2254.htm

LDS · Jul 26, 2004, 12:48 pm

Yes it will be a terrible day, if the ratio in the bible holds true 50% will be taken. The Tragedy is it could be prevented if people would humble themselves.

bishop · Jul 26, 2004, 01:19 pm

but - which people need to humble themselves?

from my standpoint, as a moderate christian who believes in living my life in the best way possible, and letting other free people choose their own path - zealots like pat robertson and jerry falwell, tom delay and franklin graham are the types of people who ought to be humbling themselves. and whoever else promotes themselves as being holier than thou.

LDS · Jul 26, 2004, 02:40 pm

In the parable of the bride groom 50% of people who know he is coming are still not prepared. Dont condemn everyone one you see. Thats not the way to teach people, instead teach by example.

Those who need to humble themselves are those who simply will not heed the warnings.

bishop · Jul 26, 2004, 02:44 pm

Quote:

Those who need to humble themselves are those who simply will not heed the warnings.

i feel we're getting into a circular debate now...

who are these people who need to humble themselves? and, what do they need to do in order to humble themselves? (some specifics would be appreciated)

and, who are the people pushing the "repent the end is near" line?

waterfalllife · Jul 26, 2004, 10:43 pm

Just because its "the second coming" doesnt mean its a good thing. That basically means that man has screwed up so badly that God has to push the reset button. Whats so good about that?

peace_hawk · Jul 27, 2004, 04:29 am

From the Christian perspective (that is what we're talking about right?) it is not a reset button or the crappiest of all crappy days. It is the fullfillment of history! The baggage we have from the Fall is done away with! Every tear (of the pious) is wiped away! Why would a sincere believer not want Jesus to return? It is how meaning in life is construed and how suffering can be endured. Just because you would find it terrifying or bad doesn't mean the evangelical would.

bishop · Jul 27, 2004, 08:04 am

Quote:

Just because you would find it terrifying or bad doesn't mean the evangelical would.

obviously - they don't.

the issue is that most people would rather see peace, not the apocalypse. and if we're going to get the proverbial second coming, we're gonna have to have the apocalypse.

in my view, as a moderate (i.e. non-evangelical) catholic, is that a religion or sub-religion that views the apocalypse as a good thing is a cult. and cults are nuts. the christians for zion campaign hopes to see violence enflame between israel and the palestinians because they feel it will help bring the apocalypse. etc..

i feel that any christian who has been indoctrinated to believe that they should look forward to the apocalypse has been horribly brainwashed. but, it wouldn't be the first time people used religion to push for war....

peace_hawk · Jul 28, 2004, 04:39 am

Of course if you actually read the revelation of John and believe it you realize that the apocalypse is not a man-made or precipitated event. It is a God induced conclusion to human history of war, famine, etc... There are actually very few evangelicals who take the position that people need to spark a war between Israel and her neighbors they would say it is just destined to happen (A position I DO NOT share). So the question is are we talking about dispensationalism's view of the apocalypse which only a marginal number of evangelicals believe but gets the most press and is the source for so much speculation (and marketing) or the more traditional hope on which all of Christianity (even Catholicism) is based? Without the apocalpse you not only get rid of cults you turn Christianity into something very different... Buddhism maybe

bishop · Jul 28, 2004, 07:48 am

how would you characterize the evangelicals that comprise our current government?

even the president himself said something to the effect of: "god told me to do it.". that's a little scary if you ask me. tom delay heads the congressional evangelicals. he's also a fatalist. and then the big spokespeople of groups like the christian coalition - aren't they heavily behind israel for all the wrong reasons? i could post quotes from their site and it would highlight the argument i'm pushing.

peace_hawk · Jul 31, 2004, 04:05 pm

Do they value life less than other non-evangelical world leaders? Stalin wasn't evangelical and while he had an eschatology (theory of how history will end)it wasn't apocalyptic. How About Putin? Or for that matter the leaders during the American Civil War (Christians but not very apocalyptic)? The theology of the people you mention is about as finely refined as their political theory. They may be dangerous but that would not be caused by their religious commitments... IT is because they fail to see, as Kerry would say, complexity. Their are many evangelicals who believe in the coming apocalypse who they would not consider "good Americans."

Technosoul · Aug 1, 2004, 05:08 am

First off we must comprehend that one of the best ways to motivate people is to tell them time is running out. That you must hurry up and make up your mind before the clock runs out of time.

It is like the classic movie theme of a ticking time bomb and the hero must save everyone before the things blows up.

Dear consumers - this is a one time limited offfer. So hurry on down and place your order - now.

I have a new bumper sticker for you all - "Down with Doomsday".

The Late Great Planet Earth (which Hal thought would end during the 1980s) is still here. Guess again.

However mark your calendars for the year 2012. That is when the present fundamentalist era will again close - due to some transformitive event, and the next era will start. (confirmed with computer science).

Technosoul.

LDS · Aug 5, 2004, 08:30 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by bishop,

i feel we're getting into a circular debate now...

who are these people who need to humble themselves? and, what do they need to do in order to humble themselves? (some specifics would be appreciated)

and, who are the people pushing the "repent the end is near" line?

Sorry for the long time between responses.

Some specifics? How about the people on this forum. I could come in here tell give everyone reasons not believe in god and they would listen. Yet you give them reasons to believe and they wont hear it.

Jul 24, 2004, 03:17 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
bishop moderat-e/o-r Location: boston Posts: 11,184	one of the focal issues in the evangelical movement is their fascination with the book of revelations.. their conviction that the end is near seems to fuel their desire to become the purest christians possible. do you think that the evangelicals secretly wish for the apocalypse (which they term as the second coming - to spin it in a positive light) to happen? hope for america... http://www.ronpaul2008.com/

Jul 24, 2004, 03:42 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
m5lange1 Igneous Magma Posts: 654	I think some do. I think some who are not evangelicals also wish for the apocalypse. Lots of people think 'they' are the only ones who are going to 'rise up'. My opinion is, if there is an apocalypse and/or an afterlife, I think that thre will be quite a few christians as surprised as the Muslums who were expecting their virgins. M5 Protester against the culture war!!!!

Jul 24, 2004, 05:40 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
bishop moderat-e/o-r Location: boston Posts: 11,184	according to this article, there's an estimated 20 million "christian zionists" - aka evangelicals or cultists.. i also remember that many "end of the world" type books were published before 2000. and after 9/11, there are reports of many people using the internet to find combinations of christian doctrine (primarily the book of revelations) and apocalytic prophecies. hope for america... http://www.ronpaul2008.com/

Jul 25, 2004, 05:09 am	#5 (permalink) (top)
Pooeypants Neo Moderator Location: England Posts: 5,609	Who's saviour? War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is strength Harness the power of Ingsoc, then you can capture someone killed the year before

Jul 26, 2004, 11:27 am	#8 (permalink) (top)
bishop moderat-e/o-r Location: boston Posts: 11,184	i do.. but this is besides the point of my post. wishing for the apocalypse and wishing for the second coming are the same thing. one is spun in a negative light, the other in a positive light. the end is good, but the means are a tragedy. maybe evangelicals despise atheists, people who aren't christian and people who aren't christian fundamentalists so much that they feel they deserve to be punished from god? some could say that we're in the 7 years of tribulation right now and that bush is setting the stage for the battle of armageddon - which they view as more than a good thing, they view it as a necessary thing. http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm/articles/2254.htm hope for america... http://www.ronpaul2008.com/

Jul 26, 2004, 12:48 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
LDS Igneous Magma Posts: 186	Yes it will be a terrible day, if the ratio in the bible holds true 50% will be taken. The Tragedy is it could be prevented if people would humble themselves. Logic and knowledge are not enough Each of us at some time in our life turns to a father, a brother, a God and asks Why am I here? What was I meant to be? Is this all that I am is there nothing more?

Jul 26, 2004, 01:19 pm	#10 (permalink) (top)
bishop moderat-e/o-r Location: boston Posts: 11,184	but - which people need to humble themselves? from my standpoint, as a moderate christian who believes in living my life in the best way possible, and letting other free people choose their own path - zealots like pat robertson and jerry falwell, tom delay and franklin graham are the types of people who ought to be humbling themselves. and whoever else promotes themselves as being holier than thou. hope for america... http://www.ronpaul2008.com/

Jul 26, 2004, 02:40 pm	#11 (permalink) (top)
LDS Igneous Magma Posts: 186	In the parable of the bride groom 50% of people who know he is coming are still not prepared. Dont condemn everyone one you see. Thats not the way to teach people, instead teach by example. Those who need to humble themselves are those who simply will not heed the warnings. Logic and knowledge are not enough Each of us at some time in our life turns to a father, a brother, a God and asks Why am I here? What was I meant to be? Is this all that I am is there nothing more?

Jul 26, 2004, 10:43 pm	#13 (permalink) (top)
waterfalllife Molten Ash Posts: 143	Just because its "the second coming" doesnt mean its a good thing. That basically means that man has screwed up so badly that God has to push the reset button. Whats so good about that? "The reason we can't find a relationship between the Constitution and the government is that there is none." -Michael Badnarik

Jul 27, 2004, 04:29 am	#14 (permalink) (top)
peace_hawk Molten Ash Location: Wisconsin USA Posts: 73	From the Christian perspective (that is what we're talking about right?) it is not a reset button or the crappiest of all crappy days. It is the fullfillment of history! The baggage we have from the Fall is done away with! Every tear (of the pious) is wiped away! Why would a sincere believer not want Jesus to return? It is how meaning in life is construed and how suffering can be endured. Just because you would find it terrifying or bad doesn't mean the evangelical would. "What you call facts depends upon the theory you bring to it." - A. Einstein Brother Dan.com

Jul 28, 2004, 04:39 am	#16 (permalink) (top)
peace_hawk Molten Ash Location: Wisconsin USA Posts: 73	Of course if you actually read the revelation of John and believe it you realize that the apocalypse is not a man-made or precipitated event. It is a God induced conclusion to human history of war, famine, etc... There are actually very few evangelicals who take the position that people need to spark a war between Israel and her neighbors they would say it is just destined to happen (A position I DO NOT share). So the question is are we talking about dispensationalism's view of the apocalypse which only a marginal number of evangelicals believe but gets the most press and is the source for so much speculation (and marketing) or the more traditional hope on which all of Christianity (even Catholicism) is based? Without the apocalpse you not only get rid of cults you turn Christianity into something very different... Buddhism maybe "What you call facts depends upon the theory you bring to it." - A. Einstein Brother Dan.com

Jul 28, 2004, 07:48 am	#17 (permalink) (top)
bishop moderat-e/o-r Location: boston Posts: 11,184	how would you characterize the evangelicals that comprise our current government? even the president himself said something to the effect of: "god told me to do it.". that's a little scary if you ask me. tom delay heads the congressional evangelicals. he's also a fatalist. and then the big spokespeople of groups like the christian coalition - aren't they heavily behind israel for all the wrong reasons? i could post quotes from their site and it would highlight the argument i'm pushing. hope for america... http://www.ronpaul2008.com/

Jul 31, 2004, 04:05 pm	#18 (permalink) (top)
peace_hawk Molten Ash Location: Wisconsin USA Posts: 73	Do they value life less than other non-evangelical world leaders? Stalin wasn't evangelical and while he had an eschatology (theory of how history will end)it wasn't apocalyptic. How About Putin? Or for that matter the leaders during the American Civil War (Christians but not very apocalyptic)? The theology of the people you mention is about as finely refined as their political theory. They may be dangerous but that would not be caused by their religious commitments... IT is because they fail to see, as Kerry would say, complexity. Their are many evangelicals who believe in the coming apocalypse who they would not consider "good Americans." "What you call facts depends upon the theory you bring to it." - A. Einstein Brother Dan.com

Aug 1, 2004, 05:08 am	#19 (permalink) (top)
Technosoul Volcanic Erupter Posts: 8,663	First off we must comprehend that one of the best ways to motivate people is to tell them time is running out. That you must hurry up and make up your mind before the clock runs out of time. It is like the classic movie theme of a ticking time bomb and the hero must save everyone before the things blows up. Dear consumers - this is a one time limited offfer. So hurry on down and place your order - now. I have a new bumper sticker for you all - "Down with Doomsday". The Late Great Planet Earth (which Hal thought would end during the 1980s) is still here. Guess again. However mark your calendars for the year 2012. That is when the present fundamentalist era will again close - due to some transformitive event, and the next era will start. (confirmed with computer science). Technosoul.