The art of morality

[Zhavric]

There exists outside of our perception a cosmic being called "Tra".

Tra has inspired human beings with the free will to create art. All art that humans create, it comes from Tra.

Every piece of art that you've ever seen. Every piece of art that you will see. Every artistic creation of mankind. All of them have a specific artistic value assigned to them by Tra. It is Tra which dictates which pieces of art are "good" and which are "bad".

If a person likes or appreciates a piece of art that Tra has deemed bad, then that person is wrong and deserving of eternal mockery.

If a person dislikes a piece of art that Tra has deemed good, then that person is wrong and deserving of eternal mockery.

You may be tempted to think that Tra is not real. You may be tempted to think that artistic worth is derived from collective societal decision weighted against the merits of a specific piece. Understand that such notions are just silly. There has to be something that dictates which art is good and which art is bad and that something is Tra. You should have faith that he exists and change around your notions of evidence to accomodate that faith.

After all, you theists do it for morality.

[Kakumei]

Art is in the eyes of the beholder, is it not?

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Kakumei Art is in the eyes of the beholder, is it not?

Yup. Just like morality. It has nothing to do with god and everything to do with a social zeitgeist. A collective interpretation of what's "bad" that changes over time... in much the same way that our opinion and attitude towards art changes over time.

[rez]

Quote by: Kakumei Art is in the eyes of the beholder, is it not?

And so is religion. However, to you it seems like that is not so.


In a response to when I said people derive their own morals you responded with....

Sadly, you dont even realize what us Mormons do. When hurricane Katrina hit, we got there before FEMA did, and I went there with a group of my buddies with my church and we helped out doing everything we could to help people out the best we could. I can back up many claims with reasons, laughing at them shows that you dont understand them, or sadly, cant.

I mean, although this was a rather lame way to defend where people get morals from you seem to be of the fact that they get them from Joseph Smith's god.


So please learn what we are saying so you don't contradict yourself

[Kakumei]

Quote by: Zhavric Yup. Just like morality. It has nothing to do with god and everything to do with a social zeitgeist. A collective interpretation of what's "bad" that changes over time... in much the same way that our opinion and attitude towards art changes over time.

What about the pharase Mala en Se. This means wrong in themselves, and usually used to describe 2 particular crimes. Killing and Rape, and as im sure you agree, this has always been a constant. Its never been okay, and countries and cities 'rome for example' that stop believeing in these values, destroy themselves, one way or another.

[rez]

Quote by: Kakumei What about the pharase Mala en Se. This means wrong in themselves, and usually used to describe 2 particular crimes. Killing and Rape, and as im sure you agree, this has always been a constant. Its never been okay, and countries and cities 'rome for example' that stop believeing in these values, destroy themselves, one way or another.

What does this even mean? Do you or do you not believe morals come from god. Explain why.

[Technosoul]

Sometimes Tra directly creates art on Her own and we just discover it. A lot of things in nature are artistic looking. I once photographed some very colorful designs made in pools of oil and gasoline.

Here is a fine example of some art work made by Tra herself.

eBay Alert: Washington Chicken Nugget Sells for $200

A natural portrate of George Washington.

[Barnicals]

Quote by: Technosoul Sometimes Tra directly creates art on Her own and we just discover it. A lot of things in nature are artistic looking. I once photographed some very colorful designs made in pools of oil and gasoline. Here is a fine example of some art work made by Tra herself. eBay Alert: Washington Chicken Nugget Sells for $200 A natural portrate of George Washington.

I personally don't think that a chicken nugget shaped like George Washingtons head is the work of a cosmic artistic force called Tra. Taking into account the widely recognized outline of Washingtons head, and the billions of chicken nuggets the world had produced, I'm sure it was only a matter of time before somebody thought "hey! this looks like _____!" Just like a ROCK. Shaped like OHIO. There's probably another rock, shaped just like Ohio, in Ohio somewhere. I doubt that the CHICKEN NUGGET, or the ROCK, are of the absolutley perfect dimensions of either a dead president or an american state. Coincidences are rare, but exist. And considering the amount of people and what those people sometimes do with the time granted to them, it's hardly surprising that things like this happen.

I suppose mans enjoyment of art and colour is based on his primal association of colour with danger or nourishment. Ripe Apples are bright red, bananas yellow, and are therefore good for you. Snakes and poisonous frogs are often vibrant colours, so perhaps that colour association could provide a subconcious thrill. You rarely see grey candy do you.

That's just my opinion.

-Barnicals.

[Barnicals]

Quote by: Zhavric Yup. Just like morality. It has nothing to do with god and everything to do with a social zeitgeist. A collective interpretation of what's "bad" that changes over time... in much the same way that our opinion and attitude towards art changes over time.

Didn't you just refer to this Tra thing as a cosmic being? What is your perception of a God if it isn't a cosmic being? So wouldn't that mean that it in fact, by most people's understanding, this would be almost entirely to do with an aspect of a God?

And I fail to see the link between art and morality in any case... except that Hitler loved art. He wasn't good at it, but neither am I. Does that make me immoral? No, it just means I can't draw. And how do you decide if Tra deems art good or not? And why are people who disagree with what people think Tra deems good or bad deserving of eternal mockery? If a child doesn't like a picture of a tree and is damned to eternal mockery and then grows into an adult who does like it, are they redeemed? Or are they tortured for an incomplete judgement?

Please be clear in what you're trying to communicate.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Kakumei What about the pharase Mala en Se. This means wrong in themselves, and usually used to describe 2 particular crimes. Killing and Rape, and as im sure you agree, this has always been a constant. Its never been okay, and countries and cities 'rome for example' that stop believeing in these values, destroy themselves, one way or another.

First, we're sort of okay with killing given certain circumstances and there's a lot of middle eastern countries that would laugh at a women who described herself as "raped". Furthermore, constants in our moral compass in absolutely no way evidence a moral lawgiver... no more so than paintings everyone likes (such as the Mona Lisa) indicates the existence of Tra.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Barnicals Didn't you just refer to this Tra thing as a cosmic being? What is your perception of a God if it isn't a cosmic being? So wouldn't that mean that it in fact, by most people's understanding, this would be almost entirely to do with an aspect of a God? And I fail to see the link between art and morality in any case... except that Hitler loved art. He wasn't good at it, but neither am I. Does that make me immoral? No, it just means I can't draw. And how do you decide if Tra deems art good or not? And why are people who disagree with what people think Tra deems good or bad deserving of eternal mockery? If a child doesn't like a picture of a tree and is damned to eternal mockery and then grows into an adult who does like it, are they redeemed? Or are they tortured for an incomplete judgement? Please be clear in what you're trying to communicate.

Wow... I'm very sincerely stumped here. Are you trying to be clever or do you really need this explained? I honestly can't tell.

[SoylentGreen]

Kakumei Its never been okay, and countries and cities 'rome for example' that stop believeing in these values, destroy themselves, one way or another.

Care to site a reference to that. I have seen many reasons as to the fall of the roman empire and killing and raping so far has failed to appear as one of them.
Why mention them anyway? Try the norseman or vikings who not only killed and raped and pillaged but felt it was their right to do so.

[Fangrim]

Quote by: Zhavric There exists outside of our perception a cosmic being called "Tra". ...

Does this thread have a point or claim?

Because all I see is a lacking comparison case, and I could just as easily do that with any standard of morality, whether it's humanistic, libertarian, or something that I made up on the spot.

What are you trying to mock or pinpoint as invalid, exactly? Because any standard of morality is equally applicable here.

[Kamehameha34]

Quote by: Fangrim Does this thread have a point or claim? Because all I see is a lacking comparison case, and I could just as easily do that with any standard of morality, whether it's humanistic, libertarian, or something that I made up on the spot. What are you trying to mock or pinpoint as invalid, exactly? Because any standard of morality is equally applicable here.

I speak for only my interpretation, but he seems to be mocking the 'morality exists, so it has to come from god argument.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Barnicals I personally don't think that a chicken nugget shaped like George Washingtons head is the work of a cosmic artistic force called Tra. Taking into account the widely recognized outline of Washingtons head, and the billions of chicken nuggets the world had produced, I'm sure it was only a matter of time before somebody thought "hey! this looks like _____!" Just like a ROCK. Shaped like OHIO. There's probably another rock, shaped just like Ohio, in Ohio somewhere. I doubt that the CHICKEN NUGGET, or the ROCK, are of the absolutley perfect dimensions of either a dead president or an american state. Coincidences are rare, but exist. And considering the amount of people and what those people sometimes do with the time granted to them, it's hardly surprising that things like this happen. I suppose mans enjoyment of art and colour is based on his primal association of colour with danger or nourishment. Ripe Apples are bright red, bananas yellow, and are therefore good for you. Snakes and poisonous frogs are often vibrant colours, so perhaps that colour association could provide a subconcious thrill. You rarely see grey candy do you. That's just my opinion. -Barnicals.

What? A Chicken Nugget is not art? Chicken Little was killed for nothing, I suppose you do not even agree with the sky is falling theroy, gee - those of little faith!

Oh well, as art it only sold for $200 and that is cheap compared to some other kinds of art work. The pancake with an image of Mary sold for a lot more.

Does this mean I will get laughed at for eternity for taking the name of Tra in vain? Guess I better get to repenting and saying confessions.

In the science of Wicca we learn about colors and their spell binding influences on the human mind. They use different colored candles for different kinds of spells, based somewhat on the ideas you expressed.

For example: If a teen girl wants to be more popular with the teenage boys she should wear birghter colors, oranges and yellows, etc. and not drab clothing, because that will make her appear more exciting and will draw more attraction to her. Like a flower to a bee. Colors as turn-on values is a well know factor to wiccan women. Even lipstick has that purpose. All part of casting spells over the dumber gender.

(PS - you are somewhat new to this forum and so I should give you my disclaimer, take everythng I say with a grain of salt. You will get used to my postings eventurally).

[Piscean]

Try the norseman or vikings who not only killed and raped and pillaged but felt it was their right to do so

.

And they too disappeared. The Norse are my ancestors and I've studied what is known of them a good deal. Nobody even knows what happened to the vikings but whatever it was is ended the way of life they had very abruptly and completely. You aren't convincing me that it's morally acceptable for me to rape and pillage your family if i think I'm right, but keep trying.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Fangrim Does this thread have a point or claim? Because all I see is a lacking comparison case, and I could just as easily do that with any standard of morality, whether it's humanistic, libertarian, or something that I made up on the spot. What are you trying to mock or pinpoint as invalid, exactly? Because any standard of morality is equally applicable here.

Quote by: Kame I speak for only my interpretation, but he seems to be mocking the 'morality exists, so it has to come from god argument.

Ah, the peanut gallery heard from. Thank you, gentlemen. Your fanclub tees are in the mail. I promise.

The point of the thread is close to what Kame stated. I'm not "mocking" the morality comes from god argument. I'm destroying it by showing you theists that morality coming from god is as absurd as artistic value coming from Tra. The sole difference between Tra/art and god/morality is that you haven't been indoctrinated since your early years to believe in Tra. So, of course it sounds silly to you. Of course you'd ask what's the point. That is the point. You theists need to start seeing your claims for what they are: bronze age drivel.

[Technosoul]

But an artist does not need to be indoctrinated and the most gifted ones know that their art and music is coming from a source other then their own personal abilities. To try to compare indoctrinated morality with the felt experience of creative art as a spiritual expression totally missleading as they have nothing in common with each other.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Technosoul But an artist does not need to be indoctrinated and the most gifted ones know that their art and music is coming from a source other then their own personal abilities. To try to compare indoctrinated morality with the felt experience of creative art as a spiritual expression totally missleading as they have nothing in common with each other.

I know and understand what you mean about art "coming from a higher source." It does seem that way sometimes. However, it doesn't. As a visual and sound artist, I know my own abilities. Sometimes I exceed my expectations, but this can happen with virtually anything. Personally, I think artistic abilities are natural communication abilities. There are different mediums because we all have different interests and skills. Sure, there are "spiritual perspectives" to art, but these can be attributed to emotional interactions with the material, its production, and its inspiration.

Grandpa h.

[Jack]

the most gifted ones know that their art and music is coming from a source other then their own personal abilities.

Anybody can claim their abilities are "god-given" but that doesn't make it so. If an artists ability is not a limitation, why can't everyone paint just like Rembrandt van Rijn, why can't anyone make music like Segovia, why can't we all write like Faulkner? Because everyone has unique abilities, and those abilities are both inspiring and limiting.

If you truly believe that artists are able to transcend their own abilities, what do you call this "source"?