Is an atheist a better person?

[Fangrim]

Quote by: rez Obviously, but if I were to talk philosophy with Sue I wouldn't learn too much.

What basis in the descriptions of the two women do you have for that?

[rez]

Quote by: Fangrim What basis in the descriptions of the two women do you have for that?

Her philosophy was based on what primitive man thought up thousands upon thousands of years ago. This was at a time when people did not understand the concept of zero, how rain formed or what disease was all about.

[wyoguy]

I know many atheists, personally, that have me (the theist) completely whipped in the whole morality category. They work harder, live cleaner, and are generally better respected in the community than myself. I want to improve myself, not in competition with these people, and not because I seek to earn favor in the eyes of my creator, but because it is, quite literally, the least I can do in gratitude for what has already been done for me.

I joined this site to learn and to teach while I learn how to teach. There are some very bright minds in here and so far I've been most impressed by a self-confessed atheist by the name of ryanatau. He makes his points in a non-emotional, understandable way that I respect, admire and seek to emulate. I can disagree with him without fear of being bashed over the head with my own ignorance, which I will concede is considerable. I hadn't studied much philosophy before I joined (mostly Greek stuff) and I've still got a lot of reading to do before I catch up to speed.

In every thread that I've joined in on, one of the following is true:
1. I'm right and you're wrong.
2. You're right and I'm wrong.
3. We're both wrong.
I think our debates would improve if we all aknowleged that 2/3 of the possibilities are negative for everyone involved.

[linda_mary_13]

I think theists are more of a person. Their lifespan far exceeds the atheist and their destination is perfection.

On a more serious note, when confronted with a life threatening situation, I would guess the difference would be more evident than in this debate forum.

[JaneDoe321]

Quote by: HelioPrime Since people want descriptions I'll paint one: Ok you have two people: 1) Sue is a grown women who believes god really did make the world in a week and humanity came from adam and eve. She donates 10 hours of her time per week to serve at a homeless shelter because she believers such acts are a showing of gods will. 2) Ann is a grown women who has no worry about being an atheist. She believes soundly that what science doesn't know it one day will and can't wait for the day everyone forgets their religious beliefs. She donates 10 hours of her time per day at a shelter because she feels it helps give back to the rest of humanity. Now reading the above two examples then atheists on the board will affirm both fictional women are acting equally and both as capable and honest a person?

I'm not the atheist spokesperson, but no, I won't affirm that. I believe they are not acting from the same motivation, and the ends don't justify either the means nor the rationales made to form the decisions to act in the first place. I'm also not willing to form an opinion on the inherent capabilities of people based on such miniscule information. And I don't see where ~honesty~ comes into the picture at all in the scenario as described.

[Jack]

I think our debates would improve if we all aknowleged that 2/3 of the possibilities are negative for everyone involved.

Yet in essence a debate is a form of contest; I with my opinions and support versus someone else with their opinions and support. Ultimately the "winner" is decided by the audience.

a process of inquiry and advocacy seeking reasoned judgment on a proposition. Debate allows for two or more sides advocating their positions on a given issues under some set of rules with some kind of judgment to follow from a judge or audience.

Glossary

While debate is adversarial, there's no reason it cannot also be civil. I can respect my opponent even though I don't respect/share their opinions.

I think theists are more of a person. Their lifespan far exceeds the atheist and their destination is perfection.

Yes, the superiority and egotism of the religious has been observed here before. That's just one more reason I say religion is more divisive and disruptive than it is inclusive and constructive.

Yet according to the Christian religion, you are incorrect in part. All people supposedly live forever. Some in paradise and the rest in hell.

[linda_mary_13]

To answer the question posed in this thread you really need to look at the differences between the theist and atheist under similar situations. For example, if the atheist is diagnosed with a life threatening disease vs the theist, I'm sure we could measure the differences in a concrete way.

When an atheist ponders his origin or purpose you're constrained to your physical existance. Do atheist value goodness, mercy, hope, love in the same way a theist would? Could that difference be measured?

Is there a physiologic difference to the quality of your life, believing that GOD is with you, protecting you from evil, and he loves you?

Does the atheist lack the benefits of the positive influences of knowing GOD?

I can't imagine not feeling "that feeling" when I recognize the presence of GOD on a spring day in a solitude moment. The overwhelming peace I'm sure could be measured in blood pressure alone.

[linda_mary_13]

Actually Jack, in Christianity some go to paradise, the rest await the resurrection and those who don't pass Judgement await Christ, in Hell.

[Jack]

Quote by: linda_mary_13 When an atheist ponders his origin or purpose you're constrained to your physical existance.

Not our origin, since the stuff we're made of has been around as long as the universe. By studying the universe, we're looking into our past. As to purpose, we aren't constrained by the preconceived notion there is one. Some atheists don't see how the universe can have purpose, others become philosophers because they're obsessed with the question. Purpose doesn't have to be divine.

Or perhaps the deists are right and a god started all this reality in motion then wandered off. You can't rule out that possibility if you allow for gods to exist. Theists, by thinking that one god can exist cannot reasonably rule out the possibility that any kind of god is possible. Whatever criteria you apply for preferring your god over other possible gods is the same reasoning atheists can apply to your god.

Atheists contend that since no theist of whatever stripe has been able to show us any credible evidence in support of their "gods exist" contention we will wait until there is some and treat the hypothesis as nonsensical in the meantime.

Do atheist value goodness, mercy, hope, love in the same way a theist would? Could that difference be measured?

Of course not. Values have motivations. A theist's motivations aren't the same as an atheist's. But the expression of those motivations is similar. Do you suggest that atheists cannot love, feel mercy, have hope or be good? I should hope not. Such a suggestion wouldn't merit debate.

Is there a physiologic difference to the quality of your life, believing that GOD is with you, protecting you from evil, and he loves you?

Well I should hope so. Why would you willingly believe in something that didn't bring more value to your life. However, a psychological effect is not evidence of the validity of the perceived cause. Atheists are just as content with their lives as theists, except that our enjoyment comes from our beliefs, not our disbeliefs. My disbelief in gods is a philosophical matter, and philosophy isn't at play every moment of my life. There are a lot of fantasies I don't accept as real. God is simply another Loch Ness Monster or leprechaun. And religious belief is unnecessary for me to appreciate the spirituality in nature.

Does the atheist lack the benefits of the positive influences of knowing GOD?

As a former theist I can answer emphatically no.

I can't imagine not feeling "that feeling" when I recognize the presence of GOD on a spring day in a solitude moment. The overwhelming peace I'm sure could be measured in blood pressure alone.

That's a perception based on an unproven assumption. "That feeling" is not contingent on a belief in any particular god. I meditate to reach that state of mind (among other benefits) and I assure you there's no mysticism involved.

[another day]

Quote by: linda_mary_13 When an atheist ponders his origin or purpose you're constrained to your physical existance. Do atheist value goodness, mercy, hope, love in the same way a theist would? Could that difference be measured?

Why are any of these things only applicable to theists? Do you know what atheism is? It is a lack of belief in god. Why would an atheist not be able to value love or mercy or goodness because he does not believe in a thinking creator being called god? I know in the theist's version of the universe, an absence of god is an absence of good, but this is not true in an atheist's perspective.

Is there a physiologic difference to the quality of your life, believing that GOD is with you, protecting you from evil, and he loves you?

Probably, and I'd say its a psychological difference that can be very harmful and misleading.

I can't imagine not feeling "that feeling" when I recognize the presence of GOD on a spring day in a solitude moment. The overwhelming peace I'm sure could be measured in blood pressure alone.

What you feel as the "presence of god" an atheist may feel as an overwhelming appreciation of the glory and complexity of nature. It's no different.

[Thanatos]

Quote by: linda_mary_13 To answer the question posed in this thread you really need to look at the differences between the theist and atheist under similar situations. For example, if the atheist is diagnosed with a life threatening disease vs the theist, I'm sure we could measure the differences in a concrete way. When an atheist ponders his origin or purpose you're constrained to your physical existance. Do atheist value goodness, mercy, hope, love in the same way a theist would? Could that difference be measured? Is there a physiologic difference to the quality of your life, believing that GOD is with you, protecting you from evil, and he loves you? Does the atheist lack the benefits of the positive influences of knowing GOD? I can't imagine not feeling "that feeling" when I recognize the presence of GOD on a spring day in a solitude moment. The overwhelming peace I'm sure could be measured in blood pressure alone.

Once there was an idealistic young atheist. He clicked on a thread thinking both theists and atheists were alike, yet what he read while scrolling down to the bottom convinced him that what he was originally going to say was not true.

I use empathy and logic directly instead of relying on God as an emotional and mental crutch. I'm smarter and emotionally tougher than you are. I understand how you feel yet you do not understand how I feel.

[Fangrim]

Quote by: rez Her philosophy was based on what primitive man thought up thousands upon thousands of years ago. This was at a time when people did not understand the concept of zero, how rain formed or what disease was all about.

And?

Ann's philosophy is based on the ongoing, truth-seeking process assigned to the scientific method.

Why does that mean you could not have interesting philosophical discussions with Sue, but still have that possibility with Ann?

[wyoguy]

Quote by: Thanatos I use empathy and logic directly instead of relying on God as an emotional and mental crutch. I'm smarter and emotionally tougher than you are. I understand how you feel yet you do not understand how I feel.

I am a theist and if you think I am relying on God as any kind of crutch, you don't have the slightest inkling about how I feel. I am flat out counting on God to carry me through to the end and beyond. However, I do understand the mindset of the atheist. I used to be one. A card carrying, dyed in the wool, full blown, foaming at the mouth atheist. A poorly studied and poorly read atheist, but atheist none the less. I can find nothing in your posts to suggest that you were among the flock of God's faithful, dressed in sheeps clothing or otherwise. I do hereby submit, for your careful inspection, that your self-professed intelligence, emotional fortitude, and wisdom are but mere illusion and doomed to fail when truly put to the test.

[rez]

Quote by: Fangrim And? Ann's philosophy is based on the ongoing, truth-seeking process assigned to the scientific method.

Yes Fangrim, learning is an ongoing thing. Learning never stops.

Why does that mean you could not have interesting philosophical discussions with Sue, but still have that possibility with Ann?

Because sue doesn't learn. She can read the primitive explanations written in her holy book 500 million times, but she still won't learn much.

I can't have a philosophical conversation about how the electron pulses in my brain connect together. And how the human brain releases chemicals and how that causes humans to interact with each other. I can't talk to her about time and space and the way it interacts with humans. And one thing really worth talking about in the philosophy realm is how humans should handle information and knowledge. Should we physically alter a fetus's genes, so that it can have blue eyes and can run really fast etc...

With Sue, the answers for all this is god would do this, god will help this, god said this and god said that. Look to this holy book for your answers....

[SoylentGreen]

wyoguyI do hereby submit, for your careful inspection, that your self-professed intelligence, emotional fortitude, and wisdom are but mere illusion and doomed to fail when truly put to the test.

And exactly what would that test be?

[Thanatos]

Quote by: wyoguy I am a theist and if you think I am relying on God as any kind of crutch, you don't have the slightest inkling about how I feel. I am flat out counting on God to carry me through to the end and beyond. However, I do understand the mindset of the atheist. I used to be one. A card carrying, dyed in the wool, full blown, foaming at the mouth atheist. A poorly studied and poorly read atheist, but atheist none the less. I can find nothing in your posts to suggest that you were among the flock of God's faithful, dressed in sheeps clothing or otherwise. I do hereby submit, for your careful inspection, that your self-professed intelligence, emotional fortitude, and wisdom are but mere illusion and doomed to fail when truly put to the test.

The person I was talking to was explaining how she uses religion for support. What can I say?

Do you want to know how I think? I was never really religious because I was precocious and I was raised in a moral vacuum. I was forced to deduce my own view of good and evil and did so when I was four.

I did not get ahold of a copy of the Bible until I was 16. It was disappointing. I expected more from a book millions loved. Why did the golden rule need explaining? Was I living on a planet of idiots?

Well, yeah. Not only that, there are people so stupid that they believe in the Bible yet break the rules anyway. I felt rather depressed. I've since cheered up but it took four years.

About death, its just a reality. I'll die some day and it may not be in the misty future given my choice of occupation but if I allow fear to paralyze me I will never enjoy what little life I have.

I have never worn a dog collar nor zombie makeup. I'm not that big into black. I don't like emo music. I know my science and I have made sure to read the arguments of the other side, but you know what? You're wrong. Its not that I'm that smart, its that I was raised in an information vacuum and had time to reach my own conclusions.

Back on topic, am I a better person because of it? I can see myself developing a robotic obedience to the Bible instead and memorizing the whole thing, in which case I'd be a very weird evangelical instead of a very weird atheist. If I'd been raised as an atheist I'd just be, well...a normal atheist? I don't know.

[Jack]

I am a theist and if you think I am relying on God as any kind of crutch, you don't have the slightest inkling about how I feel. I am flat out counting on God to carry me through to the end and beyond.

Either you mistyped this or unconsciously contradicted the first sentence with the second.

I can find nothing in your posts to suggest that you were among the flock of God's faithful, dressed in sheeps clothing or otherwise.

How can a person's posts reveal such a thing? This reads like another attempt to employ the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

[LaW]

Is an atheist a better person?

Despite what everyone else is talking about...

Is a person better than a person?

And in regards towards theist vs non-theists...

Things like that are choices we make. Accept them, but don't take abuse (verbal or physical) from them.

Just believe what you believe, and do what you do.

Be yourself.

[Milton Bradley]

Atheists are just preaching what they feel is the "right thing" to those whom they see as being in the dark.


So if religion really faults atheists for speaking out, perhaps they should reflect on they're own behavior, and how it makes "other people" feel.

[linda_mary_13]

Why is it that humans even have the ability to perceive beyond our own existance? What sets the range in each of our brains? If all of us has the ability to perceive spirituality as Jack suggested regarding the spirituality of nature by atheists, then what prevents an atheist from perceiving spirituality as real. Spirituality is the unseen.

Empathy and logic are only 2 tools. Perhaps that's why an athiest is only able to perceive his own existance on Earth.

Motivation was stated as a difference between the theist and atheist. Perhaps the difference in motivation is why the atheist only has 2 tools and is deficient in the ablility to perceive what they are beyond what they see.