What Enforces Physical Laws?

[Technosoul]

Quote by: stardust Your question is quite intriguing, but more so, i don't get what you are asking. Or maybe, it simply does what it's programmed/suppose to do and that would be following the laws.

That is a possible yes. Because nature could be designed such that it would conform to pre-concieved principles known about in phyics or by other kinds of measurments and research.

A supernatural aspect of a normal-natural majority is not beyond the scope of being realistic. It would simply be a matter of degree, between supernatural, mainstream-natural- and sub-natural. A all natural situation with levels of intelligence and levels of activity.

Did nature somehow evolve and develope intelligence, putting humans at the cutting edge of that process? If so can the end product, namely human intelligence, be able to manage everything in the universe and in the arena of life on earth with better wisdom and by giving better direction? If we are smarter via evolution then the stupid universe that made us via random happenings then how come we only mess things up rather then improve on those activities with better managment skills?

We can let the big bangers answer that one.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Zhavric I'm going to have to go with nonsensical. "Law" is just a word we happen to use for observed consistencies in the universe not a body of agreed upon rights / criminal actions that require armed individuals to upkeep. Nothing enforces the "laws of attraction" between men and women. Nothing enforces the "laws of the jungle". Likewise, physical "laws" are just phenomenon in the universe which happen the same way all the time. As for why that's the case, you'd have to get specific.

If I saw a beautiful woman walking around naked in the Garden of Eden and if my harmones enforced me to be natural then her attaction would FORCE me to say "hello, what is a nice girl like you doing here"?

If a tiger jumped out of the bushes that would enforce the laws of the jungle to mandate my reaction, flight or fight.

But what you are talking about is different then a physical law like gravity. Each animal has a built in "law of their own nature". A cat will act cat like and a dog will act doggie like. This all is traced back to DNA directives which manage those inate laws such as "human nature". We also have a internal spirit supervisor that can overrule the laws of our human nature, giving us a choice. That abilty to make spirutal choices cannot be found in a study of our DNA, it has to do with what independantly developes in our understanding and understanding advocates overstanding. Making things more complex for those involved in explainations.

In other words, a cat will always react he same way based on their built-in impulses, or by domesticated re-programing. They have no choice other then to obey.

Humans have a limited choice. We can select to say no to sex or no to physically fighting someone who we see as a threat, and can think of other ways to react or to respond for more logical outcomes relative to our destiny. We do not have to run away or fight back if we discover in our mind a better way to deal with situations, making the "law of the jungle" obsolete as our commander and chief. If we can use our mind to overcome automatically following the laws of the jungle then why not also use our minds to overcome the laws of gravity? That could be the next step in consciousness attainment. Like a well trained horse we can select to become the domesticated pets of a spiritual souce that is outside of the wild jungle. We can via intelligence control the "beast within us", so to speak. But nature is not connected to that alien resouce for alternative activity and we are somewhat of a novelty within nature due to this ability for alienated attainments. AAA - animal anonymous association. (alternitive alien activity) aka - non-confomity to the norms of nature. Self evidence of another source to adopt direction from other then the laws of nature and our own internal laws of our ape like nature.

How do you explain that with a scientific text book?

[rez]

Quote by: winter wind It does beg the question of why physical laws are what they are.

Because of the first instance of how the universe came to be. From there it was a snow ball effect. Everything works off everything and thats exactly what investigators have been finding.

[Winter wind]

Quote by: rez Because of the first instance of how the universe came to be. From there it was a snow ball effect. Everything works off everything and thats exactly what investigators have been finding.

but where did the snowball come from?

[Winter wind]

Quote by: zhavric Instead, we should ask "how".

sure, zhavric. How could this be?

I don't think natural law was just always there. Conservation of energy, dimensions, logic itself are the fundamental rules of this universe. But how come these are the rules? Any particular reason?

like how come there are three dimensions of movement? Why not two?

[rez]

Quote by: Winter wind but where did the snowball come from?

The snowball is cause and effect. When did the presence of a thing come from, who knows? Investigate....

[HelioPrime]

A magical being sprinkled fairy dust and it all started.

[Morality Games]

Quote by: Winter wind sure, zhavric. How could this be? I don't think natural law was just always there. Conservation of energy, dimensions, logic itself are the fundamental rules of this universe. But how come these are the rules? Any particular reason? like how come there are three dimensions of movement? Why not two?

Don't forget that the laws of physics may not be anymore definitely established than the nature of humanity -- human nature is an evolving system, the universe could be an evolving system too.

That's one theory, anyway.

[Technosoul]

If ideas evolve which in turn become set laws, and/or repeated habits, then you must have Mind for those ideas to involve in, a intelligent mind that has a creative imagination which is subjected to logical reasoning. It is self evident that an ape and a human are related to the same idea, a pre-exsisting idea that was improved upon, changed, and manifested as an idea made flesh. All those natural laws are ideas that came about and ideas are known to exsist in a mind as their environmental space. So keep that in mind as you speuculate about this topic.

[Winter wind]

Quote by: morality games Don't forget that the laws of physics may not be anymore definitely established than the nature of humanity -- human nature is an evolving system, the universe could be an evolving system too.

Ah, but everything had a starting point. Humans came from bla, from bla, until we reach the primordial soup where RNA was first made. RNA came from compounds and yada yada....

But where did the first thing come from? Can something evolve from nothing?

[Gods_Mercenary]

If you can answer that, you'll be possibly the greatest scientist in history.

[Winter wind]

Quote by: god's mercenary If you can answer that, you'll be possibly the greatest scientist in history.

haha, no, just the last one.

[Thanatos]

Believe it or not I started another thread just to help straighten my thoughts out on this issue:

Could 1+1=3?

Here I figured out that all other physical laws are consequences one primal law: conservation of energy. Its common in the derivations of laws and also underlies mathematics as a whole.

This begs the question of why the universe obsessively conserves energy. I don't know the answer. I think I have pushed it as far as it can be pushed because what I wound up with was a fancy way of writing 1=1.

[smartcode]

Quote by: Winter wind Ah, but everything had a starting point. Humans came from bla, from bla, until we reach the primordial soup where RNA was first made. RNA came from compounds and yada yada.... But where did the first thing come from? Can something evolve from nothing?

The first thing came from a creator Allah

Allah who existed before everything and will last after everything

Allah! There is no god but He, the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) Before or After or Behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).

[Winter wind]

That's the argument at stake.

[rez]

Quote by: Winter wind But where did the first thing come from? Can something evolve from nothing?

This is exactly the mindset people had when they thought the earth was flat. "What happens when you reach the edge of the earth"? Today we now know that the earth is not flat and that it was a irrelevant question that really had nothing to do with the state of nature. The same goes for the beginning of the universe.

[Winter wind]

Quote by: rez This is exactly the mindset people had when they thought the earth was flat. "What happens when you reach the edge of the earth"? Today we now know that the earth is not flat and that it was a irrelevant question that really had nothing to do with the state of nature. The same goes for the beginning of the universe.

Interesting. Maybe time is round. However, it isn't beyond the pale to ask where the first "cause" in cause and effect came from. I don't see how the universe being spherical can avoid this question.

[Thanatos]

Quote by: rez This is exactly the mindset people had when they thought the earth was flat. "What happens when you reach the edge of the earth"? Today we now know that the earth is not flat and that it was a irrelevant question that really had nothing to do with the state of nature. The same goes for the beginning of the universe.

A closed loop universe works, but the concept bothers me. I go the quantum route.

You see, there are certain circumstances wherein 1 is not equal to 1. In empty space virtual particles are continually created mostly because nobody can prove they weren't there all along. A particle can appear on the other side of any energy barrier for no apparent reason; if its energy is sufficiently uncertain who says it can't?

This sounds bizarre and silly, but the electrons in your fluorescent lights would be unable to "leap" down to a lower energy state and emit a photon without this weird side of physics.

Anyways, suppose you had a whole lot of nothing. Get God out of the way because if He's acting as an observer He's going to muck this all up. Because there is no one and nothing to observe this incredible volume of absolutely nothing, who is to say there isn't something there? The singularity that became the big bang was therefore a gigantic virtual particle.

Also, somewhere the big bang singularity has to have an antimatter twin to preserve conservation of energy.