Hi all I would discuss with you about I.....M

[SoylentGreen]

zhav I've yet to encounter a Muslim online who can adequately debate. Christians... atheists... agnostics... new agers... all of them can delve into the specifics of their faith (or lack there of) with equal detachment. Without preaching. I've yet to meet a Muslim who can do this.

It is a cultural thing. Western society for the most part practice religious freedom in that everyone is able to have a personal opinion about god.

In islamic the people are taught that the Imam is the holder and debater of religious knowledge and that the faithful only need to go to them for help in interpreting the word. Otherwise they just accept and repeat back what they learn.
This does not mean that islamic people don't think about their religion but that it is not proper for the ordinary man to debate with other ordinary men about the religion.
That is what the Imam is for.
So zhav it should be impossible for you to have any real debate about the religion unless your prepared to sit at the feet of an imam and tell him you wish to convert.
This is probably why smartlove is unable to do more than repeat scripture.

[Jack]

1-Although this rule is true but since 1400 years ago no single person converted from Islam to another religion. Milions of Muslims living in America and Europe can convert if they like but non of them did so. As a result we can deduce to that This rule is put to stop playing with the religion.

How could anyone know that? To discredit that entire statement, all I have to do is present the testimony of one Muslim anywhere who converted from Islam to any other religion or became an atheist. I don't anticipate a problem finding one.

Let's start here. I'll post others as I encounter them.

[Jack]

Here's one brave lady. It's a shame that disagreement is seen as an excuse to threaten death. Can anyone doubt, listening to the pronouncements of Muslim clerics, that this is a backward and potentially dangerous belief system, much like Christianity.

Three weeks ago, Dr. Wafa Sultan was a largely unknown Syrian-American psychiatrist living outside Los Angeles, nursing a deep anger and despair about her fellow Muslims. Today, thanks to an unusually blunt and provocative interview on Al Jazeera television on Feb. 21, she is an international sensation, hailed as a fresh voice of reason by some, and by others as a heretic and infidel who deserves to die. In the interview, which has been viewed on the Internet more than a million times and has reached the e-mail of hundreds of thousands around the world, Dr. Sultan bitterly criticized the Muslim clerics, holy warriors and political leaders who she believes have distorted the teachings of Muhammad and the Koran for 14 centuries. She said the world's Muslims, whom she compares unfavorably with the Jews, have descended into a vortex of self-pity and violence. Dr. Sultan said the world was not witnessing a clash of religions or cultures, but a battle between modernity and barbarism, a battle that the forces of violent, reactionary Islam are destined to lose. In response, clerics throughout the Muslim world have condemned her, and her telephone answering machine has filled with dark threats. But Islamic reformers have praised her for saying out loud, in Arabic and on the most widely seen television network in the Arab world, what few Muslims dare to say even in private. Perhaps her most provocative words on Al Jazeera were those comparing how the Jews and Muslims have reacted to adversity. Speaking of the Holocaust, she said, "The Jews have come from the tragedy and forced the world to respect them, with their knowledge, not with their terror; with their work, not with their crying and yelling." She went on, "We have not seen a single Jew blow himself up in a German restaurant. We have not seen a single Jew destroy a church. We have not seen a single Jew protest by killing people." She concluded, "Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people and destroying embassies. This path will not yield any results. The Muslims must ask themselves what they can do for humankind, before they demand that humankind respect them." ...clerics in Syria denounced her as an infidel. One said she had done Islam more damage than the Danish cartoons mocking the Prophet Muhammad, a wire service reported. DR. SULTAN is "working on a book that — if it is published — it's going to turn the Islamic world upside down." Dr. Sultan grew up in a large traditional Muslim family in Banias, Syria, a small city on the Mediterranean about a two-hour drive north of Beirut. Her father was a grain trader and a devout Muslim, and she followed the faith's strictures into adulthood. But, she said, her life changed in 1979 when she was a medical student at the University of Aleppo, in northern Syria. At that time, the radical Muslim Brotherhood was using terrorism to try to undermine the government of President Hafez al-Assad. Gunmen of the Muslim Brotherhood burst into a classroom at the university and killed her professor as she watched, she said. "They shot hundreds of bullets into him, shouting, 'God is great!' " she said. "At that point, I lost my trust in their god and began to question all our teachings. It was the turning point of my life, and it has led me to this present point. I had to leave. I had to look for another god." She said she no longer practiced Islam. "I am a secular human being," she said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/11/in...rtner=homepage

[Zhavric]

Quote by: SoylentGreen It is a cultural thing. Western society for the most part practice religious freedom in that everyone is able to have a personal opinion about god. In islamic the people are taught that the Imam is the holder and debater of religious knowledge and that the faithful only need to go to them for help in interpreting the word. Otherwise they just accept and repeat back what they learn. This does not mean that islamic people don't think about their religion but that it is not proper for the ordinary man to debate with other ordinary men about the religion. That is what the Imam is for. So zhav it should be impossible for you to have any real debate about the religion unless your prepared to sit at the feet of an imam and tell him you wish to convert. This is probably why smartlove is unable to do more than repeat scripture.

All I saw you say was, "It's a cult."

[SoylentGreen]

Quote by: Zhavric All I saw you say was, "It's a cult."

True but a more strictly regimented cult than most christians cults.

[Rainbow]

Quote by: RealRockingham They do, actually, in some- Turkey and Albania are the first that come to mind.

These states have a long way to go, with concern to rights for women. Nevertheless, that is much better than nothing.
Yet, that indicates the Social issues, and Not religious ones.

[Matt]

Quote by: Jack Billions of people believe all sorts of things. Popularity of belief does not confer validity. I'm not sure what a fake god is. Since there's no good reason to believe that any god is real, can there be such a thing as a "fake" imaginary creature? We don't deny that which has yet to be shown to exist. What we do deny is that any theist has presented overwhelmingly convincing evidence to support the notion that gods can and do exist. Then why can no theist accomplish such an easy task? When I look at everything around me I marvel at the wonders of nature, I don't imagine a supreme being. Perception is not proof. Objects that are clearly man-made don't suggest that natural objects must have a creator as well. If everything that exists has a creator, what creates the creator? Claims with no substance. The perception of miracles has more to do with faulty perceptions and the misinterpretation of the event than they are evidence of the gods. There is no doubt in many of our minds that religion and the gods are inventions of man.

Ummm...I don't think you wrote the above post...which is post #22..

Quote by: smartcode Matt I answered you in post 22 I add also that it is not halwacination. The Qoraan is very wise book totally different from what you suggest.

Just answer my question please. Can a women marry 4 men, yes or no?

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: smartcode God never forgot his people on earth. If we start with Adam, he met god in the heaven. After that God sent many messengers every couple of years he sends messengers. We know Nooh (Noa), Saleh, Hood, Shuaib,Loot,Ibraham, Isaac Jacob, Johan, Ismail, Moses Jesus, Muhammed, Muhammed is the final messenger sent by God

Q 1 How you can priove Adam and God interaction is true and factual. Also evolution theory is wrong??

Q 2 You say every couple of years God sent messangers. But then, how can it be Muhammed has been the last messanger ??? How can one know who is real messanger and who is ordinary person ???Is it self claimed sort of thing ???

Hope a logical and rational reply from you, as it is a debate forum !!!

[smartcode]

Quote by: Kuldeep Q 1 How you can prove Adam and God interaction is true and factual. Also evolution theory is wrong??

The one who said these stories is Prophet Muhammad, if we can prove that he is a real prophet then we can prove his stories: We people in the middle east(old world) hosted all of the messengers. When the messenger come to us he comes with miracles as proofs. These proofs are impossible to be done by anybody except by God support for example : Prophet Muhammad did many miracles. e.i he was with his friends their food was very little so he said some God words ( such as By the name of the God) on the food then the food could feed hundreds of men. This story is very popular and documented. Also he was saying prophecies that will happen in our times after 1400 years. It really happened such as

" At the end of the life you will see the unshod people who are nearly naked because of they are poor you will see them building higher buildings than each other's(now Very popular in the middle east because of oil money)"
The prophet usually referes the unusual doings to GOD not to himself. Once he lost his horse then he couldn't find it tell God told him where it is!.

Quote by: Kuldeep Q 2 You say every couple of years God sent messangers. But then, how can it be Muhammed has been the last messanger ??? How can one know who is real messanger and who is ordinary person ???Is it self claimed sort of thing ??? Hope a logical and rational reply from you, as it is a debate forum !!!

These information will not be known untill we read it in the Quraan (and bible) You may ask what is the proof that Quraan is true book from God. Then I will tell you that Quraan is proving himself. The information inside Quraanis very miraculous that no human or non-human can say them except a very powerfully thing (GOD). e.i Quraan told us since 1400 years ago that the skies are inflating (widening) at that time there was no telescopes (Telescopes came only less than 400 yrs ago after the invention of the lens.
The first known practically functioning telescope is credited to the German-Dutch lensmaker Hans Lippershey in 1608.
( Telescope - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia )

Your Question abou the final prophet Muhammed is told to us by the prophet himself , he said: " The prophets are the bricks of a big building only one brick remainig to complete this structure. I am the last brick" Prophet Muhammed.

I am here not debating to win but to reach to the correct answer.
Bye Bye..

[Matt W]

You really should stop making false blanket generalisations....

Quote by: smartcode 1-Although this rule is true but since 1400 years ago no single person converted from Islam to another religion. Milions of Muslims living in America and Europe can convert if they like but non of them did so. As a result we can deduce to that This rule is put to stop playing with the religion.

BBC NEWS | World | Asia-Pacific | Malaysia rejects Christian appeal

Malaysia's highest court has rejected a Muslim convert's six-year battle to be legally recognised as a Christian. A three-judge panel ruled that only the country's Sharia Court could let Azlina Jailani, now known as Lina Joy, remove the word Islam from her identity card. Malaysia's constitution guarantees freedom of worship but says all ethnic Malays are Muslim. Under Sharia law, Muslims are not allowed to convert. Ms Joy said she should not be bound by that law as she is no longer a Muslim.

BBC NEWS | World | Asia-Pacific | Malaysia 'convert' claims cruelty

A Malaysian woman held for months in an Islamic rehabilitation centre says she was subjected to mental torture for insisting her religion is Hinduism. Revathi Massosai, the name by which she wants to be known, says she was forced to eat beef despite being a Hindu. Miss Massosai was seized by the Islamic authorities in January when she went to court to ask that she be registered as a Hindu rather than a Muslim.

BBC NEWS | World | Asia-Pacific | Malaysian woman can leave Islam

A religious court in Malaysia has allowed a Muslim convert to leave the Islamic faith, in what is being hailed as a landmark ruling. Penang's Sharia court ruled that Siti Fatimah Tan Abdullah was free to return to Buddhism, following the collapse of her marriage to a Muslim man. It was decided she had not had proper counselling during her conversion. Malaysians are rarely allowed to renounce the faith - those who do can be prosecuted under stringent laws.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: smartcode The one who said these stories is Prophet Muhammad, if we can prove that he is a real prophet then we can prove his stories:

That's false, but I'll humor you.

We people in the middle east(old world) hosted all of the messengers. When the messenger come to us he comes with miracles as proofs. These proofs are impossible to be done by anybody except by God support for example : Prophet Muhammad did many miracles. e.i he was with his friends their food was very little so he said some God words ( such as By the name of the God) on the food then the food could feed hundreds of men. This story is very popular and documented. Also he was saying prophecies that will happen in our times after 1400 years. It really happened such as

So, if we can prove he's a real prophet then we can prove his stories are true and it is to those stories that you turned to prove he's real prophet.

That's called circular reasoning. It's a type of logical fallacy. Which anyone here can recognize. Except you.

Why do you suppse that is?

[smartcode]

Quote by: Matt W You really should stop making false blanket generalisations.... BBC NEWS | World | Asia-Pacific | Malaysia rejects Christian appeal BBC NEWS | World | Asia-Pacific | Malaysia 'convert' claims cruelty BBC NEWS | World | Asia-Pacific | Malaysian woman can leave Islam

You let me laugh. What a simple man you are. You are looking for a very odd and unfrequent stories. 1,2,3,4 are not comparables to thousands of people convert to Islam. Actually they are not converting but finding the right thing they are looking for...

<http://groups.google.com/group/AbuSamirSami> NBC NEWS:20000 <http://news:20000/> americans Convert To ISLAM Each Year! :
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/2PS2creVhaM <http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/2PS2creVhaM>

Yusuf Estes - Priests and Preachers accepting Islam :
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/E6K0627FiCk <http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/E6K0627FiCk>

Many Latinos Convert Daily To ISLAM .. Live From Venezuela! :
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/1XyrxzQIN9w <http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/1XyrxzQIN9w>

Every day many Germans convert to ISLAM :
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/34kjurzK500 <http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/34kjurzK500>

Thousands of Danish convert to Islam :
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/kru6XQ8CT48 <http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/kru6XQ8CT48>

TV Report Thousands Hispanics Converting To ISLAM :
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/yDwGsmTx3D4 <http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/yDwGsmTx3D4>

German Scientist & his wife,clinic assistant convert 2 islam :
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/uP-2IqH_l4c <http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/uP-2IqH_l4c>

European Scientist converts to Islam :
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/0IspK651RpY <http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/0IspK651RpY>

[Matt W]

Ah, so Youtube trumps actual news sources? How interesting. And I was pointing out that you claim no-one wanted to convert from Islam. You are wrong. It's that simple.

[Jack]

You let me laugh. What a simple man you are. You are looking for a very odd and unfrequent stories. 1,2,3,4 are not comparables to thousands of people convert to Islam. Actually they are not converting but finding the right thing they are looking for...

I'm glad we're amusing you. In any case, are you backing away from your earlier and very absolute statement?

Although this rule is true but since 1400 years ago no single person converted from Islam to another religion. Milions of Muslims living in America and Europe can convert if they like but non of them did so.

(Emphasis mine)
In my dictionary conversion is defined as the changing from one state to another. How do you define "conversion" so as to avoid conceding your earlier comment was hyperbole?

[smartcode]

Quote by: Jack Here's one brave lady. It's a shame that disagreement is seen as an excuse to threaten death. Can anyone doubt, listening to the pronouncements of Muslim clerics, that this is a backward and potentially dangerous belief system, much like Christianity. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/11/in...rtner=homepage

Jack
Dont let very odd woman (bitch) not anything compared with big europian and American scientists and clerks commended Islam ,dont let her fool you with lies such as Islam let muslims go backward. It is a fact that during the black ages of europe, Islam dominated the world with his sciece and good Law of justice and kindness.
see my previous post upward. many Good people like you converted to ISlam

[smartcode]

Quote by: Jack I'm glad we're amusing you. In any case, are you backing away from your earlier and very absolute statement? (Emphasis mine) In my dictionary conversion is defined as the changing from one state to another. How do you define "conversion" so as to avoid conceding your earlier comment was hyperbole?

Jac and matt,
I think the debate is turned into mockery. I think now it is useless to continue. You are taking the very selly thing and leaving the very important one.
If you have "nothing" to do here please dont do it here

[Matt W]

Once more, smartcode - are you preaching or debating? Preaching is not welcome here.

[SoylentGreen]

smartcode It is a fact that during the black ages of europe, Islam dominated the world with his sciece and good Law of justice and kindness.

True and then mohamed appeared and destroyed all that. Now middle eastern countries are backwards and superstitious like Europe in the dark ages.

[Matt W]

Quote by: SoylentGreen True and then mohamed appeared and destroyed all that. Now middle eastern countries are backwards and superstitious like Europe in the dark ages.

Err, no, Mohammed was about 600 AD. Islamic countries and Caliphates were substantially more advanced than Europe until about 1600.

[Jack]

Dont let very odd woman (bitch) not anything compared with big europian and American scientists and clerks commended Islam ,dont let her fool you with lies such as Islam let muslims go backward.

When someone claims to have left behind their Christian beliefs, other Christians usually try to maintain that the "backslider" never was a "true Christian" in the first place. I see things aren't so very different among Muslims. Do you know this woman personally, have first hand knowledge that permits you to malign her character so? Reading from the article she appears rational, sane and concerned for those who are subject to religious demagoguery.

It is a fact that during the black ages of europe, Islam dominated the world with his sciece and good Law of justice and kindness.

True, but then what happened? They became more concerned with theology than mathematics and science and within a few centuries were living just as they had 1000 years ago. They abandoned exploring reality and turned instead to superstition and foolishness. Their former intelligence was squashed by religious fundamentalism.