Hi all I would discuss with you about I.....M

[Jack]

Quote by: smartcode Bilions of people(Jaws Christians & Mulims) are worshipping The God Allah. Sure not all of them since Adam are worshipping fake God.

Billions of people believe all sorts of things. Popularity of belief does not confer validity. I'm not sure what a fake god is. Since there's no good reason to believe that any god is real, can there be such a thing as a "fake" imaginary creature?

However, I say that You among Athiests are denying God.

We don't deny that which has yet to be shown to exist. What we do deny is that any theist has presented overwhelmingly convincing evidence to support the notion that gods can and do exist.

God existence is very clear and can be proved easyly.If a person told you that the huge NASA Chattle existed without a creator, then you will tell him you are carzy. The same way when you look at everything around you you must say there should be a creator.

Then why can no theist accomplish such an easy task? When I look at everything around me I marvel at the wonders of nature, I don't imagine a supreme being. Perception is not proof. Objects that are clearly man-made don't suggest that natural objects must have a creator as well. If everything that exists has a creator, what creates the creator?

Prophets who carry the message of God also have done alot of miracles it is impossible to be human made such as mouses snake, Jesus made the dead alive, Muhammed brought the Quraan which is full of miracles that we can discuss it later.

Claims with no substance. The perception of miracles has more to do with faulty perceptions and the misinterpretation of the event than they are evidence of the gods.

There is no doubt that God Religion is God made (Islam is the final & complete testament)

There is no doubt in many of our minds that religion and the gods are inventions of man.

[Milton Bradley]

Well, with Ish, er, uh, Jack disecting that post like that, I see no reason to burden him further, and bombard him with even more questions which he will just end up denying anyway.

[Matt]

smartcode, you are ignoring my post in the other thread....

Anyhow, I have a question, isn't the whole Muslim religion based on Muhammed hearing messages from God and making the Quran? Correct me if I'm wrong.

If that is true, couldn't he have been lying or hallucinating?

[SoylentGreen]

And mine as well, in this thread.

So unless your actually claiming to be an Imam, then your a fake or perhaps a pseudo western corruption of Islamic belief.

[stardust]

If everything that exists has a creator, what creates the creator?

Thats the whole point of the concept of god. God by virtue of his attributes, needs no creator. A higher-power who exists because of a creator is not by any means "god."

[smartcode]

Quote by: Matt smartcode, you are ignoring my post in the other thread.... Anyhow, I have a question, isn't the whole Muslim religion based on Muhammed hearing messages from God and making the Quran? Correct me if I'm wrong. If that is true, couldn't he have been lying or hallucinating?

My full respect to you . I appologise if I missed your quote
Yes Muhammad got all the book from God through the Angel Gebrael
Muhammed did not claim that this book from him. The book itself is a miracle in many aspect:
1- Linguisticaly it is impossible to be said by a man on earth the proof is that God challenged all the people specially Arabs to say a simmilar thing but they could not

2- Scientificaly, facts inside Quraan cant be known at the time of revealation. see this site it has many miracles from Quraan

The quran miracles encyclopedia

I will complete later bye

[RealRockingham]

Quote by: smartcode Bilions of people(Jaws Christians & Mulims) are worshipping The God Allah. Sure not all of them since Adam are worshipping fake God. However, I say that You among Athiests are denying God. God existence is very clear and can be proved easyly.If a person told you that the huge NASA Chattle existed without a creator, then you will tell him you are carzy. The same way when you look at everything around you you must say there should be a creator. Prophets who carry the message of God also have done alot of miracles it is impossible to be human made such as mouses snake, Jesus made the dead alive, Muhammed brought the Quraan which is full of miracles that we can discuss it later. There is no doubt that God Religion is God made (Islam is the final & complete testament)

What about Agnostics? Are we denying God? Or are we a grey area?

And yeah, I look around me.... and what I see is what my mind percieves. Perception is not proof of a creator, but of itself. By your logic, existence is proof that a sentient being created it- why? When you think about from a scientific perspective, most objects aren't particularly
incredible, though people often mistake size for incredibility.

The exception is things that are a result of the process of "survival of the fittest"... contrary to popular belief, the principle applies not only to living creatures, but to their creations(ie, buildings that are not "fit" are replaced by more "fit" designs).

[smartcode]

[

Quote by: RealRockingham The exception is things that are a result of the process of "survival of the fittest"... contrary to popular belief, the principle applies not only to living creatures, but to their creations(ie, buildings that are not "fit" are replaced by more "fit" designs).

This is not true ...Otherwise we will not see a very weak creatures living between us.

[Matt]

Quote by: smartcode My full respect to you . I appologise if I missed your quote Yes Muhammad got all the book from God through the Angel Gebrael Muhammed did not claim that this book from him. The book itself is a miracle in many aspect: 1- Linguisticaly it is impossible to be said by a man on earth the proof is that God challenged all the people specially Arabs to say a simmilar thing but they could not 2- Scientificaly, facts inside Quraan cant be known at the time of revealation. see this site it has many miracles from Quraan The quran miracles encyclopedia I will complete later bye

Here is what I asked you after you stated that all people with Islam are equal:

Are women allowed to marry up to four men (like men are)?

If they aren't, then Islam is not equal to everyone.





Some people are really smart, and could make up things. I'm not saying it was made up, but it could have been.

If Islam is a good religion, when why do so many people who follow it have such hatred for other religions (like Christianity)? I'm not saying all do, but some do. And why do they get so offeneded when, for example, that comic strip in Demarkmade fun of Muhammed?

[Hurt]

Quote by: Matt Here is what I asked you after you stated that all people with Islam are equal: Are women allowed to marry up to four men (like men are)? If they aren't, then Islam is not equal to everyone. Some people are really smart, and could make up things. I'm not saying it was made up, but it could have been. If Islam is a good religion, when why do so many people who follow it have such hatred for other religions (like Christianity)? I'm not saying all do, but some do. And why do they get so offeneded when, for example, that comic strip in Demarkmade fun of Muhammed?

The same could be said for any "good" religion.. no one's going to be all friendly if you're doing what they consider sinning..which applies to the comic strip as well.

[Jack]

Muslims are taking it a bit further than just not being friendly.

A Muslim Battle Plan Against Free Speech by Robert Spencer Posted: 03/20/2008 The 57-nation Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC) met last week in Senegal, where they developed what AP called “a battle plan” to defend Islam “from political cartoonists and bigots.” Not against the violent supremacists who have allegedly “hijacked” their religion, mind you. No battle plan is needed against them. The OIC is instead concentrating on the greatest threat to Islam: those who draw cartoons of Muhammad and writers who point out that the terrorists find their motivations in Islamic texts and teachings. “Muslims are being targeted by a campaign of defamation, denigration, stereotyping, intolerance and discrimination,” explained Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu, the OIC’s secretary general. He did not mention the possibility that at least some of this “defamation, denigration, stereotyping, intolerance and discrimination,” if it exists at all, comes as a backlash to the 10,000-plus jihad terror attacks since 9/11, justified by their perpetrators by reference to the Qur’an and Islamic law. Instead of working to divorce terrorism from Islam and condemn its perpetrators, AP reported that OIC “delegates were given a voluminous report by the OIC that recorded anti-Islamic speech and actions from around the world. The report concludes that Islam is under attack and that a defense must be mounted.” That’s right: not that the non-Muslim world is under attack from jihadist Muslims, but that Islam is under attack. In response, the OIC is planning to create a “legal instrument” to combat criticism of Islam. “Islamophobia,” Ihsanoglu declared, “cannot be dealt with only through cultural activities but (through) a robust political engagement.”

(More here)

[Hurt]

Quote by: Jack Muslims are taking it a bit further than just not being friendly. (More here)

Perhaps, but you also have Christian groups like Westboro that are more extremist than many others.

[Jack]

The inbreds of the WBC may be offensive and completely irrational, but as yet I haven't heard of them trying to muzzle opposing views and committing violent acts against those with whom they disagree. That's not to say I think they're any better than any other religious group.

[Thanatos]

Quote by: SoylentGreen And mine as well, in this thread. So unless your actually claiming to be an Imam, then your a fake or perhaps a pseudo western corruption of Islamic belief.

The debating equivalent of hitting the nice variants of Islam over the head with a stick repeatedly is not advised. I know its fun, but I try to avoid putting those who are mostly harmless through too much abuse if I can.

[SoylentGreen]

Quote by: Thanatos The debating equivalent of hitting the nice variants of Islam over the head with a stick repeatedly is not advised. I know its fun, but I try to avoid putting those who are mostly harmless through too much abuse if I can.

Not hitting any one over the head.
My understanding is that it is the Imam who has the job of explaining scripture, not the layman. smartcode can't be a Imam because they don't seek out converts or explain their religion to any who do not come to them to ask.
If smartcode is Islamic then does his Imam know that he is being rude to others and breaking his own religious customs.

[shrike]

Quote by: Jack The inbreds of the WBC may be offensive and completely irrational, but as yet I haven't heard of them trying to muzzle opposing views and committing violent acts against those with whom they disagree. That's not to say I think they're any better than any other religious group.

I agree with this completely. Christians learned to live with liberal democracy. Islam has not achieved this level yet.

[RealRockingham]

Quote by: smartcode [ This is not true ...Otherwise we will not see a very weak creatures living between us.

The theory is "surival of the fittest", not "existence only of the fittest"...

So, a very weak creature may arise, but it or its offspring(if it islucky enough to happen) will likely quickly die out again...

Their are creatures that are weak from our perspective.... but these are normally due to either flawed human perspective(ie, the flawed belief that bacteria are weak, even though they existed before and outlived..say, t-rex)... or due to sudden fluctuations(ie., elephants are suddenly "weak" due to the arrival of humans, but weren't in so weak a position before)... the fact they go closer to extinction each year is proof that this is so. Sure, the extinction isn't immediate, but its gradual).

Much of your mistake is PROBABLY(aplogies if it is not so) due to interpreting "fittest" as reffering to physical strength, when it in fact refers to likelihood of the offspring having more offspring, and those offspring having more offspring, and so on.

[RealRockingham]

Quote by: shrike I agree with this completely. Christians learned to live with liberal democracy. Islam has not achieved this level yet.

No, for example their are still Christians, in say Latin America, that employ violence.

[shrike]

Quote by: RealRockingham No, for example their are still Christians, in say Latin America, that employ violence.

Because countries in Latin America not very democratic. Christianity is the biggest religion in the world and still there are much less violent acts than Islam.

[RealRockingham]

Quote by: shrike Because countries in Latin America not very democratic. Christianity is the biggest religion in the world and still there are much less violent acts than Islam.

Because most Muslim countries are not very democratic.

I think you'd find in the economically developed and democratic regions of the Islamic world(Albania, Most of non-Kurdish Turkey, Malysia, most of Iran(well, its partially democractic) aren't very violent at all. Hell, even Indonesia is pretty peaceful, considering the ethnic diversity, population size and poverty of the state- being a liberal-ish democracy probably has something to do with it.