St. Augustine and Science

[shunyadragon]

I think St. Augustine had a prophetic message addressing 'Creation Science'. It would be educational if YEC Christians take a close look.

"Often a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other parts of the world, about the motions and orbits of the stars and even their sizes and distances,... and this knowledge he holds with certainty from reason and experience. It is thus offensive and disgraceful for an unbeliever to hear a Christian talk nonsense about such things, claiming that what he is saying is based in Scripture. We should do all that we can to avoid such an embarrassing situation, lest the unbeliever see only ignorance in the Christian and laugh to scorn."
- St. Augustine, De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim (The Literal Meaning of Genesis)

[Mr.Vicchio]

Is it not found in Pslams? I cannot recall atm just woke up, that God says go forth and become Learned? I know its in the Bible somewhere.

[Plegmund]

Interesting. It's idle speculation, but I think Augustine might have become an significant scientist (possibly an astronomer) if his mother's influence hadn't turned him away from it. There are passages in (I think) the Confessions where you can sense a slight gritting of his teeth over the then-current Christian view that science was not so much wrong as irrelevant.

[shunyadragon]

Originally posted by shunyadragon, I think St. Augustine had a prophetic message addressing 'Creation Science'. It would be educational if YEC Christians take a close look. "Often a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other parts of the world, about the motions and orbits of the stars and even their sizes and distances,... and this knowledge he holds with certainty from reason and experience. It is thus offensive and disgraceful for an unbeliever to hear a Christian talk nonsense about such things, claiming that what he is saying is based in Scripture. We should do all that we can to avoid such an embarrassing situation, lest the unbeliever see only ignorance in the Christian and laugh to scorn." - St. Augustine, De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim (The Literal Meaning of Genesis)

The following is the second half of the quote. I think the issue is not so much astronomy, but knowldge.

"The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field in which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although "they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion."

[Technosoul]

And so this is a new question that the above poster imagines.

Was the theory of evolution or the Big Bang, or the String thing, created just to prove the Bible is wrong. Or were the theories discovered independantly of any motive to bash the Biblical theology or storytelling?

Whatcha think?
Technosoul.

[shunyadragon]

Originally posted by Technosoul, And so this is a new question that the above poster imagines. Was the theory of evolution or the Big Bang, or the String thing, created just to prove the Bible is wrong. Or were the theories discovered independantly of any motive to bash the Biblical theology or storytelling? Whatcha think? Technosoul.

Charles Darwin and others who began the Theory of Evolution, basically believed in God and Theistic Evolution. There is no indication that any one was motivated by Bible bashing or describing the Bible as just stories. Actually Einstein and others who were not theists initially rejected the Big-Bang theory. In general the scientists who support Evolution and the Big-Bang come from a diverse religious background. A Roman Catholic Priest and scientist who was one of the early proponents of the Big-Bang

[droque]

Originally posted by shunyadragon, I think St. Augustine had a prophetic message addressing 'Creation Science'. It would be educational if YEC Christians take a close look. "Often a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other parts of the world, about the motions and orbits of the stars and even their sizes and distances,... and this knowledge he holds with certainty from reason and experience. It is thus offensive and disgraceful for an unbeliever to hear a Christian talk nonsense about such things, claiming that what he is saying is based in Scripture. We should do all that we can to avoid such an embarrassing situation, lest the unbeliever see only ignorance in the Christian and laugh to scorn." - St. Augustine, De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim (The Literal Meaning of Genesis)

Galileo was almost burned on the stake because he said the sun does not revolve around the earth.

When we accept truth based on faith, we burn science on the stake.

Truth through reason that comes from the mind that God gave us is the way to the Truth--GOD.

GOD did not give us bibles that were written by men.

THE TRUTH IS GOD--not the Gods created by men through bibles they have written.

[droque]

Originally posted by Mr.Vicchio, Is it not found in Pslams? I cannot recall atm just woke up, that God says go forth and become Learned? I know its in the Bible somewhere.

"Love the Truth" and the Truth will set you free from ignorance that you may "Know the Truth and the Truth will save you from the Royal Lies that keep us ignorant.

[Technosoul]

Mr Vicchio

I recall that Jesus said "study and show your self approved by God".

I would speculate that is open for different kinds of interpreations.

As I recall the words went like this "you shall come to know the truth" Adam knew Eve and they had children. Here we see that the word know (knew) is a marrage between two identities. In other words, you shall become one with the truth. You shall come to know the truth and the truth will set you free. You shall leave the house (and authority) of your parents and cling to your wife/husband. Thus Adam left the presence of his heavenly father God and was set free from that parential guidance, aka free will.

You shall become one with the truth and the truth will set you free from depending on other laws, dogmas, as well as the bible, as your parential guidance.

Kinda complex but someone might get the drift of that.

Technosoul.

[voyager]

Don't be so hard on the Christians. After all the did recant their acusation after only 500 years. Befor Darwin's Origin of Species, many knew that species changed through time but they could not offer a mechanism for change. Darwin came to the conclusion that the mechanism for change was "natural selection".

I didn't realize St Augustine was much interested in science. His early life was into drunkenness and debauchery. This can be found in his book "Confessions". Augustine was a main factor for the church as we know it today. The debate was between Augustine (of Hippo) and Justine (of Eclantium). Justine saw the world as open and loving and Augustin saw it as full of sin and contemt. This took the church to it's fire and brimstone approach to it's teachings.

[droque]

Originally posted by voyager, Don't be so hard on the Christians. After all the did recant their acusation after only 500 years. Befor Darwin's Origin of Species, many knew that species changed through time but they could not offer a mechanism for change. Darwin came to the conclusion that the mechanism for change was "natural selection". I didn't realize St Augustine was much interested in science. His early life was into drunkenness and debauchery. This can be found in his book "Confessions". Augustine was a main factor for the church as we know it today. The debate was between Augustine (of Hippo) and Justine (of Eclantium). Justine saw the world as open and loving and Augustin saw it as full of sin and contemt. This took the church to it's fire and brimstone approach to it's teachings.

Well, you can't blame either one them for having told the world that they had talked to a "Burning Bush". Worse yet, that the "Burning Bush" talked back/

[shunyadragon]

Originally posted by voyager, Don't be so hard on the Christians. After all the did recant their acusation after only 500 years. Befor Darwin's Origin of Species, many knew that species changed through time but they could not offer a mechanism for change. Darwin came to the conclusion that the mechanism for change was "natural selection". I didn't realize St Augustine was much interested in science. His early life was into drunkenness and debauchery. This can be found in his book "Confessions". Augustine was a main factor for the church as we know it today. The debate was between Augustine (of Hippo) and Justine (of Eclantium). Justine saw the world as open and loving and Augustin saw it as full of sin and contemt. This took the church to it's fire and brimstone approach to it's teachings.

Do not be so hard on Christians? Christians rake everyone else across the coals!

Saint Augustustine said what he said because he realized the world was changing and new knowledge was emerging from many places beside Christianity. Something Christians today have failed to realize,that they are living in the past, the far distant past.

[shunyadragon]

Originally posted by droque,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (droque,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-voyager, Don't be so hard on the Christians. After all the did recant their acusation after only 500 years. Befor Darwin's Origin of Species, many knew that species changed through time but they could not offer a mechanism for change. Darwin came to the conclusion that the mechanism for change was "natural selection". I didn't realize St Augustine was much interested in science. His early life was into drunkenness and debauchery. This can be found in his book "Confessions". Augustine was a main factor for the church as we know it today. The debate was between Augustine (of Hippo) and Justine (of Eclantium). Justine saw the world as open and loving and Augustin saw it as full of sin and contemt. This took the church to it's fire and brimstone approach to it's teachings.

Well, you can't blame either one them for having told the world that they had talked to a "Burning Bush". Worse yet, that the "Burning Bush" talked back/[/b][/quote]

Are you talking about the 'Burning Bush' in the White House?

[droque]

Moses told the world the greatest "Royal Lie" in the history of mankind--that he had talked to a 'Burning Bush' and that the "Burning Bush' talked back!

But Moses' Royal Lie did not mislead our country into a pre-emptive war that has already caused more than a thousand of our young men and women to die for Bush's Royal Lie to get Haliburton their oil!

[droque]

Try this one on the far right republican neo-cons:

Bush is paying his campaign with the "BILLIONS" of dollars given to his rich friends in the form of tax cuts for their soft money for re-election that is being subsidized by the taxpayers!

And Bush wants to Democratize Iraq while people die--what a sad joke!

Forgive them St. Augustine?

[LogicaLunatic]

Originally posted by droque, Moses told the world the greatest "Royal Lie" in the history of mankind--that he had talked to a 'Burning Bush' and that the "Burning Bush' talked back! But Moses' Royal Lie did not mislead our country into a pre-emptive war that has already caused more than a thousand of our young men and women to die for Bush's Royal Lie to get Haliburton their oil!

No, but it's likely caused many thousands more to die for something far less substantial... religion.

LL

[orgaelin]

Hi all.

I don't think we should go easy on the Christians at all. Well, at least not the Catholics.

Is anyone familiar with any of the torture methods the Catholics used on innocent "witches"?

One of them was called the pear, due to its shape. The large end of the 'pear' was inserted into the woman's vagina, leaving the narrow end protuding, out of which came a handle. When the handle was turned, the pear device inside would open up wide. The torturers would then rip the whole device out of her. This was considered to be a death sentence.

Another death sentence was where they tied a persons hands behind their backs, winched them up on a rope and pulley system, then dropped them, ripping the shoulders from the sockets. This was done a few times, before the person was left there to die slowly.

But then what else could we expect from a church that is the child of Rome? Rome wrote the book on torture. Catholicism was a wicked institution from the day it started.

[droque]

Originally posted by LogicaLunatic,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (LogicaLunatic,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-droque, Moses told the world the greatest "Royal Lie" in the history of mankind--that he had talked to a 'Burning Bush' and that the "Burning Bush' talked back! But Moses' Royal Lie did not mislead our country into a pre-emptive war that has already caused more than a thousand of our young men and women to die for Bush's Royal Lie to get Haliburton their oil!

No, but it's likely caused many thousands more to die for something far less substantial... religion.

LL[/b][/quote]

DJR: The question about 9/11 that bothers me the most is:

Was Bush's hard line policy towards the Palestinians (kids being killed, homes demolished, leaders assinated with American military hadware subsidized by our
taxpayers) deliberately intended to provoke the fanatical religious lunatics???

It made him a popular "War President" that may get him re-elected!

[shunyadragon]

Originally posted by droque,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (droque,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by LogicaLunatic,@ <!--QuoteBegin-droque, Moses told the world the greatest "Royal Lie" in the history of mankind--that he had talked to a 'Burning Bush' and that the "Burning Bush' talked back! But Moses' Royal Lie did not mislead our country into a pre-emptive war that has already caused more than a thousand of our young men and women to die for Bush's Royal Lie to get Haliburton their oil! No, but it's likely caused many thousands more to die for something far less substantial... religion. LL

DJR: The question about 9/11 that bothers me the most is:

Was Bush's hard line policy towards the Palestinians (kids being killed, homes demolished, leaders assinated with American military hadware subsidized by our
taxpayers) deliberately intended to provoke the fanatical religious lunatics???

It made him a popular "War President" that may get him re-elected![/b][/quote]

This is very off topic, please take this to the politcal section.