We can't prove if God exists or not, but what we can prove...

[sdbest]

It's impossible to "prove" within the rigors of formal logic the existence or non-existence of God or gods. However, what can be proved, I submit, is whether or not God (or gods) intervene in human affairs, as those who pray must believe.

The intervention of God would be detectable if events and phenomena deviated from chance. A deviation from chance is what would be expected if a self-aware, supernatural being was intervening in human affairs, particularly in response to prayer.

Do we have evidence of events deviating from chance such that the intervention of supernatural intelligence might be the explanation? For the evidence to be significant, of course, it would have to be unambiguous.

For example, a new leg growing on an amputee as consequence of prayer would be startling. The gravitational constant changing in order to prevent a plane crash would call for some explanation.

For a God who created a Universe such interventions would be trivial.

[Jack]

Definitive proof (evidence) would have to be an occurrence that could not be explained in any other way. Your example of restoring a missing limb would be one. Restoring sight to the blind, not so much. Of course, if miracles were shown to be possible, we'd still have to determine what was performing them.

[Lullaby Chainer]

There are natural occurrences of fingers regrowing... perhaps some day entire limbs?

' Was the new finger a 'natural' miracle?' by BBC - RichardDawkins.net

[Sonart]

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To quote myself quoting myself, regarding proofs vs. probabilities. From Some questions for the godless...

"It gets even more interesting (some of you have heard me tell this story)...

It eventually became accepted that the Universe, as Einstein had predicted, was expanding. The assumption was that the expansion would slow to a stop, due to the gravity of all the matter in the universe, and then begin contracting, to eventually collapse into a reverse Big Bang.

For renowned cosmologist and physicist Steven Hawking, this became his proof for Intelligent Design. His reasoning... the statistical probability of the Universe expanding at exactly the rate to make life on Earth possible was so incredibly minute -- billions to one -- as to be basically impossible as a random event. Had the Big Bang been a micro-nano percent stronger, the Universe would long since have expanded beyond what's compatable with life. Had it been a micro-nono percent weaker, it would have long since collapsed back on itself.

Nah, the odds were so outrageous that it could only have happened by design. In fact, the only POSSIBLE way that the Big Bang could have expanded to a point of making life on Earth possible within an acceptable range of random probability would be if the Universe were not only expanding, but ACCELERATING in that expansion.

And of course, at the time Hawking wrote this in his "A Brief History of Time", in 1988, no one was suggesting such a thing.

Well, guess what...!"

"Given that the vast amounts of rationally explained scientific knowledge we now possess were all once unexplainable phenomena which we attributed to the workings of gods, the best bet is that those things we still don't know also have rational, scientific explanations that do not include gods. We just don't know what they are yet." -- Daniel's Wager

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[sdbest]

Quote by: Sonart . His reasoning... the statistical probability of the Universe expanding at exactly the rate to make life on Earth possible was so incredibly minute -- billions to one -- as to be basically impossible as a random event. .

Help me by explaining how the statistical probability of a singular, germinal event occurring is determined.

Is it possible that there were billions of Big Bangs prior to the one that after billions of years happened to result in conditions that made life on Earth possible? If so, then the odds of a Big Bang that led to the conditions that made life possible on Earth are not particularly long. The odds of winning a Power Ball lottery are very poor for any one individual, but somebody always wins.

[Technosoul]

It is a good thing that earth won that big bang Super Ball lottery otherwise the aliens would have own.

[loser]

The intervention of God would be detectable if events and phenomena deviated from chance. A deviation from chance is what would be expected if a self-aware, supernatural being was intervening in human affairs, particularly in response to prayer. Do we have evidence of events deviating from chance such that the intervention of supernatural intelligence might be the explanation? For the evidence to be significant, of course, it would have to be unambiguous.

Not entirely true. Mostly, God uses natural phenomena to effect his purposes. For example, the destruction of Sodom was probably through a volcanic eruption; the parting of the Red Sea was accomplished with a strong wind; Elijah's ascent into the heavens was in an aircraft (flaming chariot). God uses incredibly advanced science (by man's standards) to effect 'miracles' that astonish primitive mankind.

So, even when God intervenes (which He often does), He does so in a way which could be construed as a coincidence (fog or calm seas, for example: See Miracle of Dunkirk).

For example, a new leg growing on an amputee as consequence of prayer would be startling.

Not really, the body has been shown to have regenerative abilities. My stepfather's brother grew an artery around a blockage (it was discovered when he went to have surgery). Science can explain all miracles even though that doesn't make them any less miraculous.

Definitive proof (evidence) would have to be an occurrence that could not be explained in any other way.

This rules out everything, then, because anything can be explained in other ways. That just goes to show you how unreasonable it is for someone to ask you to prove something. Proof is impossible.

For example, when they say DNA results "prove" that a man fathered a child, do they ever say that the results are 100% sure? No! The probability may approach 100% but never actually attains it. There is always a remote chance that he is not the father.

Even eye witnesses can be wrong. A blink of an eye or a momentary turn of the head can cause one to miss an important event.

In life, if there's one thing that's certain it's that nothing is certain.

Because life is so full of uncertainty, it makes it a lot easier when we have something else to fall back on: FAITH!

I don't KNOW that my wife is faithful to me but I sure have a lot of FAITH in her fidelity!

Of course, the opposite of faith is DOUBT.

Ask a doctor which of these opposing emotions is best for one's health.

[Sandy]

Why is God even a subject of debate. It is always in the brain of the individual whether or not to believe in God. I choose not to believe and I am concerned that those who do, want to change our Constitution to fit something that cannot be proved. Bring back the Separation of Church and State and we may get back to business.

My next door neighbor years ago lost his 17 year old son to Liver Cancer. His wife was so horrified at this loss that she had to be committed but he jumped into fund raising making Liver Cancer his cause. To me this represents two sides to the argument. If you blame God, you will never achieve sanity. Most people blame others for their problems and that started when God was designed to take the brunt of hell. This whole load of crap about the damned going to hell and burn for their sins is only a problem for a painter or writer trying to display or describe the wrath of hell.

[Tycoon]

It is always in the brain of the individual whether or not to believe in God.

That isn't completely true. I believed in God for ten years of my life, and decided overnight that I didn't believe in God anymore, because of my sexuality. It is not in anybody's definite nature to believe in God or to not believe, things change.

Bring back the Separation of Church and State and we may get back to business.

That is why God is a subject of debate.

Not entirely true. Mostly, God uses natural phenomena to effect his purposes. For example, the destruction of Sodom was probably through a volcanic eruption; the parting of the Red Sea was accomplished with a strong wind; Elijah's ascent into the heavens was in an aircraft (flaming chariot). God uses incredibly advanced science (by man's standards) to effect 'miracles' that astonish primitive mankind.

But all of these occurences could be explained through science. What I am saying is, if a volcano went off, it went off because of plate tectonics and other scientific forces, that could be explained by other forces, and by other forces before that. There is no reason to think that God had any intervention in it.

Not really, the body has been shown to have regenerative abilities. My stepfather's brother grew an artery around a blockage (it was discovered when he went to have surgery). Science can explain all miracles even though that doesn't make them any less miraculous.

I see no reason to call it miraculous, I call it good science with logical explanations.

[Tycoon]

Is it possible that there were billions of Big Bangs prior to the one that after billions of years happened to result in conditions that made life on Earth possible? If so, then the odds of a Big Bang that led to the conditions that made life possible on Earth are not particularly long. The odds of winning a Power Ball lottery are very poor for any one individual, but somebody always wins.

That's a good point. Haha, the question is... if the Big Bang does continuously repeat itself, is there any way humanity as a race can survive it?

[Tycoon]

Because life is so full of uncertainty, it makes it a lot easier when we have something else to fall back on: FAITH!

Ask a doctor which of these opposing emotions is best for one's health.

I see, so faith is your placebo. That doesn't make it right, our reasonable doubt has so much proof that it is misplaced faith.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: sdbest Help me by explaining how the statistical probability of a singular, germinal event occurring is determined.

You'll have to ask Steven Hawking, because I have no idea. Or read "A Brief History of Time". I'm just passing on what he'd said, and what has since been discovered.

Quote by: sdbest Is it possible that there were billions of Big Bangs prior to the one that after billions of years happened to result in conditions that made life on Earth possible? If so, then the odds of a Big Bang that led to the conditions that made life possible on Earth are not particularly long.

Based on the fact of an accellerating expansion of the Universe, they're not that long regardless.

Which was the point of my anecdote.

Not really, the body has been shown to have regenerative abilities. My stepfather's brother grew an artery around a blockage (it was discovered when he went to have surgery). Science can explain all miracles even though that doesn't make them any less miraculous.

That's really interesting, Loser.. but a new leg growing on an amputee would be VERY startling, whether due to prayer or medical practice. Which explains why we haven't seen it.... yet.

Quote by: Tycoon I see, so faith is your placebo. That doesn't make it right, our reasonable doubt has so much proof that it is misplaced faith.

I have no problem with faith as placebo, since it seems to work.

In fact, it's one of the reasons I think evolution bequeathed Humans with a genetic instinct for spirituality.

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[Walrus]

If god does get involved and answers prayers, that involvement would appear to be somewhat arbitrary. If he answers some prayers why does he ignore others and by refusing to help those who ask for his help, is he blameless?

[Simonius]

Quote by: sdbest It's impossible to "prove" within the rigors of formal logic the existence or non-existence of God or gods. However, what can be proved, I submit, is whether or not God (or gods) intervene in human affairs, as those who pray must believe. The intervention of God would be detectable if events and phenomena deviated from chance. A deviation from chance is what would be expected if a self-aware, supernatural being was intervening in human affairs, particularly in response to prayer. Do we have evidence of events deviating from chance such that the intervention of supernatural intelligence might be the explanation? For the evidence to be significant, of course, it would have to be unambiguous. For example, a new leg growing on an amputee as consequence of prayer would be startling. The gravitational constant changing in order to prevent a plane crash would call for some explanation. For a God who created a Universe such interventions would be trivial.

There are some that argue that statistics show that those who pray and are prayed for are more likely to recover from medical problems. If these figures show a higher anomaly than the placebo effect then they suggest that prayer has power, if prayer has power then it suggests the possbility (but does not prove), the existence of an interventionist entity.

Of course 84% of statistics are made up.

[Morality Games]

Because life is so full of uncertainty, it makes it a lot easier when we have something else to fall back on: FAITH!

That might explain why my type of nature is badly suited for faith. When it comes to mental battles, I hate falling back, especially from things whose uncertainty frustrates and confuses me. In such instances, I feel a need to master the complexity, to make it obvious to me.

And so, in due course it seemed obvious to me religious accounts of reality were false.

[Derach]

Quote by: Simonius There are some that argue that statistics show that those who pray and are prayed for are more likely to recover from medical problems. If these figures show a higher anomaly than the placebo effect then they suggest that prayer has power, if prayer has power then it suggests the possbility (but does not prove), the existence of an interventionist entity. Of course 84% of statistics are made up.

Are there studies showing that people who are prayed for, but don't know it, have a better rate of recovery than those who are not prayed for? I am not aware of any. The same could be said for people who are told they are being prayed for but are not ... do they recover differently from the first group of people?

Besides, the whole prayer-speeding-recovery theory can easily be interchanged with positive mental attitude theory (or the Anthony Robbins motivational speech theory). On top of that, different people heal differently in any case ... much of the reasons some people recover from cancer and some don't are still a mystery ... you can call it 'God's will' ... I'll just chalk it up to your metabolism, genetic makeup, lifestyle, mental attitude ... and really the roll of the dice.

[Simonius]

Quote by: Derach Are there studies showing that people who are prayed for, but don't know it, have a better rate of recovery than those who are not prayed for? I am not aware of any. The same could be said for people who are told they are being prayed for but are not ... do they recover differently from the first group of people? Besides, the whole prayer-speeding-recovery theory can easily be interchanged with positive mental attitude theory (or the Anthony Robbins motivational speech theory). On top of that, different people heal differently in any case ... much of the reasons some people recover from cancer and some don't are still a mystery ... you can call it 'God's will' ... I'll just chalk it up to your metabolism, genetic makeup, lifestyle, mental attitude ... and really the roll of the dice.

I was certain there was such a study, I will try and dig one out for you.
But if you take into account the placebo effect surely that to a large degree explains away the positive mental attitude theory (well its hardly a theory, someones mental state does effect their health).

[Sonart]

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Long-Awaited Medical Study Questions the Power of Prayer - Mar. 31, 2006

--"Prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the recovery of people who were undergoing heart surgery, a large and long-awaited study has found.

And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications like abnormal heart rhythms, perhaps because of the expectations the prayers created, the researchers suggested.

Because it is the most scientifically rigorous investigation of whether prayer can heal illness, the study, begun almost a decade ago and involving more than 1,800 patients, has for years been the subject of speculation."--


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[Simonius]

Quote by: Sonart . Long-Awaited Medical Study Questions the Power of Prayer - Mar. 31, 2006 --"Prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the recovery of people who were undergoing heart surgery, a large and long-awaited study has found. And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications like abnormal heart rhythms, perhaps because of the expectations the prayers created, the researchers suggested. Because it is the most scientifically rigorous investigation of whether prayer can heal illness, the study, begun almost a decade ago and involving more than 1,800 patients, has for years been the subject of speculation."-- .

Oh well scratch that then!

[Derek Wolff]

The theory of Quantum physics, our identities creating our own world, is astoundling similiar to God creating his own. My question to the existence of God is why life? What its purpose? How could life spawn on a block of rock? Where did matter come from? Why water and oxygen? You can tell me how these work but not the source of existence. I don't believe in God but the more I think about it the more feasible it is.

"the big bang" prehaps a creation of God?

That isn't completely true. I believed in God for ten years of my life, and decided overnight that I didn't believe in God anymore, because of my sexuality. It is not in anybody's definite nature to believe in God or to not believe, things change.

The bible is the words of prophets not just the word of God. Maybe the new testment is really the epitomy of God, in which it does not describe Homosexual acts a sin.