Westboro Baptist Church

[Tycoon]

Not necessarily. There were definitely leaders of the movement, and there were definitely teachings that were passed on. I think it's less likely that they were passing beliefs on to their children or anything like that, but they didn't all come up with the same ideas on their own coincidentally. An inherent characteristic of movements is that there are leaders and followers.

Then the leaders came up with their beliefs themselves, my point is, they weren't taught their beliefs by a two-thousand year old book that atheism was centered around.

Do you think a greater or lower percentage of Christians believe that than did 100 years ago? Certainly society as a whole is rejecting that view more now. While those beliefs may never disappear, I'm confident that they will continue to slip to the margins.

I'll believe it when I see it.

[Tim]

Quote by: Tycoon Then the leaders came up with their beliefs themselves, my point is, they weren't taught their beliefs by a two-thousand year old book that atheism was centered around.

The only difference seems to be the time frame. If Nihilist writings still exist in 1900 years, then it would be the same thing. Somebody had to come up with the beliefs of Christianity too. They jsut did it a long time ago.

[Tycoon]

The only difference seems to be the time frame. If Nihilist writings still exist in 1900 years, then it would be the same thing. Somebody had to come up with the beliefs of Christianity too. They jsut did it a long time ago.

Writings teaching what? That because God doesn't exist we should turn to anarchy and murder?

I don't think those writings would last that long. I see this more as the dellusions of the people who started this Environmental Liberation Front, and then the people who followed it.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Tycoon But nevertheless it seems to be becoming more and more acceptable for religions to preach intolerance or spread it through society simply because we must accept their beliefs.

So your point is because christians are allowed to practice their beliefs it leaves room for abuse and extremist. Couldn't the same be said of gun ownership, driving a car, or drug use? Do you propose we apply the same standard and ban all of the above to prevent the possible cases of abuse?

It's not a completely meaningless statistic. 75% of the United States is Christian, and 75% of the prison population is Christian. What is it, 8-12% of the United States is atheist, but only .21% of the prison population is atheist.

Meaningless.

Were they christian before they entered a christian based prison program? Does it consider the fact the majority of the nation is some type of christian?

If a survey found that only 0.8% of the prison population is jewish would you then claim that branch of faith is less violent?

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Tycoon Writings teaching what? That because God doesn't exist we should turn to anarchy and murder? I don't think those writings would last that long. I see this more as the dellusions of the people who started this Environmental Liberation Front, and then the people who followed it.

So any atheist extremist group is just the result of personal feelings of some leader.

Yet christian extremist are because of the bible to the answer is to stop belief in anything the bible says.

If that your opinion?

[gela]

digg / video display

This is for lols. Its a guy flirting with Fred Phelps Jr, while he is protesting against gays. Its a funny clip.

Besides that, I can just give some more disgusting quotes from their other site: http://godhatesamerica.com

Hell has room for all of your soldiers, America! George Bush has been suckered into a bloody, senseless war that he can't win by a God determined to execute vengeful justice on a disobedient nation. ... Number who have entered hell as punishment for your sins: 4,000 WBC Prays for it to be 4,000,000

Mar 20, 2008 -- Thank God For MO Floods! At least 15 are dead as God causes the waters to rise and MO to be punished for their crimes against God's people. WBC will preach these funerals! Missouri has persecuted WBC, and has thereby "sown the wind, and is reaping the whirlwind" (Hosea 8:7).

Mar 14, 2008 God swats a crane out of the New York skyline, killing 4, injuring dozens, with others still missing. If not God, who? Your mythical "Mother Nature"? Get real, "he giveth to all life, and breath", Acts 17:24.

Thank God for September 11! The towers fell as punishment for your sins, America! Only WBC has the heart and the love for our fellow man to tell you that truth. Those events came at the hand of an angry God, or do you think He was on vacation that day and couldn't put a stop to it if He so desired? Get serious. "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it" (Amos 3:6)?

Read This! "And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you" (Lev 26:30).

Everything they have is backed up by the bible. The bible is Westboro Churches main argument.
From what I can tell, their image of god is more accurate then the average christians image of god.
I haven't read the Bible lately, but apparently God has destroyed several civilisations for sinning. Why is America different?

She was once a great nation, like Sodom and Gomorrah, blessed with great propserity and power not before seen in the modern world. And, like Sodom and Gomorrah, she has spit in the face of God until His wrath has been brought down upon her with fierce anger. "Thus shall mine anger be accomplished, and I will cause my fury to rest upon them, and I will be comforted: and they shall know that I the LORD have spoken it in my zeal, when I have accomplished my fury in them" (Ezekiel 5:13). America is the spitting image of ancient Israel and Judah "But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against his people, till there was no remedy" (2 Chr 36:16).

Tell me, Why is Westboro Church's interpretation of the Bible wrong, and why is your interpretation of the bible right?
Alot of you are willing to reject gay rights because of one little verse. Westboro Church seem to have several verses which support them.

[gela]

Not necessarily. There were definitely leaders of the movement, and there were definitely teachings that were passed on. I think it's less likely that they were passing beliefs on to their children or anything like that, but they didn't all come up with the same ideas on their own coincidentally. An inherent characteristic of movements is that there are leaders and followers.

I'll happily admit to be a follower in many movements. But I am not a follower in the Athiest movement.

I don't even have a clue who the Athiest leader is suppose to be.

Athiesim is characterised by a disbelief.
We disbelieve for different reasons, and besides our disbelief in a God, we have no other uniforming characterstics.

Actually, I think atheism was an important component of their nihilist philosophy. It seems to me that the belief that life is meaningless is part of how they justified their violent action.

Athiests believe the opposite. We believe that we only have this life. No afterlife. Therefore we have to make the most of this life.
If anything, Christianity says that life is meaningless, since you have an eternity, in a much nicer life waiting for you once you die.
Just kill em all and let god deal with them.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Tycoon I know that groups like the WBC do not provide good representations of the Christian faith,

Why not?

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them."
Leviticus 20:13

Jesus never specifically tells people not to do this. He allegedly says that people should get married and have kids.

So, the problem for Christians is that the WBC can be complete and utter sh1theads sure in the knowledge that they have a defensible reading of the bible to base their hate on.

[Morality Games]

I wish people would understand atheism is a philosophical point-of-view on one topic, not a worldview in any sense. It is just like nominalism, conceptualism, instrumentalism, idealism, realism, naturalism, etc ... no ethics or politics necessarily accompany it. All it does is describe a single, isolated idea (a denial of the belief in the existence of God).

This immediately sets it apart from religions, which are accompanied by ethics at the least, and by the logic of my vocabulary politics too.

People called atheists would better be known under the umbrella "secular humanists" due to their emphasis on existential features common to all humans as a basis for morality (empathy, healthiness, and happiness versus anti-pathy, unhealthiness, and misery) and their concern only for the well-being of entities in this world. Otherwise, religions might mistake the 'rationalistic' science-drive types with some Wiccan and Buddhist / eastern religion denominations.

Most atheists do. The atheists in question however did not. Atheism in this case was an important component of their philosophy. The absence of a god contributed to the amorality that led them to perpetrate their acts.

A senseless point, because I could just as rightfully say it was an absence of "secular humanism" or even "common sense" as opposed to an absence of god.

[Chaossaber314]

There's a good documentary on this group out called "Fall From Grace".

In it, Phelps reveals that the reason they believe soldiers are being killed primarily by IED's in Iraq is because at some point some jerk firebombed their church and they weren't satisfied with the police response... so some decades later God is punishing this country because of it didn't care about Phelps enough. Awe. Did he really just admit that he's only after attention in a round-a-bout way?

[Kakumei]

Quote by: Tycoon Westboro Baptist Church is probably the extreme in the Christian religion, and I'm just wondering what your opinion is when it comes to radical Christians. Westboro Baptist Church: Westboro Baptist Church Home Page Here are a few short quotes from the website. Some of these quotes were taken from the picketing schedule, which is prone to go off on short religious rants and scriptural quotes. The picketing schedule involved picketing United States government buildings, picketing other houses of worship, and last but not least picketing even the funerals of marines lost in the war. Here is a video link showing an interview of Shirley Phelps Roper, a member of the WBC. YouTube - baptist hate group on hannity and colmes I know that groups like the WBC do not provide good representations of the Christian faith, but I am wondering what could possibly lead to anybody going as far as picketing a marine funeral?

Lol, this is why I choose a religion that helps people and not drives them away.

[Tim]

Quote by: Chaossaber314 There's a good documentary on this group out called "Fall From Grace". In it, Phelps reveals that the reason they believe soldiers are being killed primarily by IED's in Iraq is because at some point some jerk firebombed their church and they weren't satisfied with the police response... so some decades later God is punishing this country because of it didn't care about Phelps enough. Awe. Did he really just admit that he's only after attention in a round-a-bout way?

Is the documentary on the web anywhere? I'm curious to see it. regarding your second paragraph, my opinion of him just dipped even lower (if that was possible). That's one of the more hateful, self-centered sentiments I've ever encountered.

[Tim]

Quote by: Morality Games I wish people would understand atheism is a philosophical point-of-view on one topic, not a worldview in any sense. It is just like nominalism, conceptualism, instrumentalism, idealism, realism, naturalism, etc ... no ethics or politics necessarily accompany it. All it does is describe a single, isolated idea (a denial of the belief in the existence of God).

I understand and agree with what you're saying to an extent, although I think it is a point of view that certainly has an effect on someone's life. People's behavior is dictated by the sum of their beliefs. I don't know that it's possible for an idea to be completely isolated. That being said, I totally understand what you're saying about atheism not being a worldview. For what it's worth, I'm not particularly religious either.

People called atheists would better be known under the umbrella "secular humanists" due to their emphasis on existential features common to all humans as a basis for morality (empathy, healthiness, and happiness versus anti-pathy, unhealthiness, and misery) and their concern only for the well-being of entities in this world. Otherwise, religions might mistake the 'rationalistic' science-drive types with some Wiccan and Buddhist / eastern religion denominations.

I'm not sure I buy that 100%. I think you could find people who don't believe in any god but who also aren't all that concerned withmorality or empathy or the happiness of others. As you claimed above, atheism is simply the denial of a god, not a complete philosophy. It's therefore pretty rash to lump every single person who doesn't believe in a god into one philosophy. In your point below, even you differentiate between atheism and secular humanism.

A senseless point, because I could just as rightfully say it was an absence of "secular humanism" or even "common sense" as opposed to an absence of god.

I agree that extremists lack common sense. But you can just as easily make that claim for WBC as you can for any other extremist, including the Nihilists in question. In fact I think lack of common sense is pretty much a prerequisite for becoming an extremist.

Basically, I wasn't trying to start an atheism vs. Christianity debate. I hate those. My argument is that extremism can take many forms, and that there is no one philosophy that causes it.

[Tim]

Quote by: gela Athiests believe the opposite. We believe that we only have this life. No afterlife. Therefore we have to make the most of this life.

I thought atheism was characterized by disbelief? I don't get it. You can't make that claim and then proceed to describe the beliefs that you claim are inherent to all atheists. You're contradicting yourself. My understanding was that anyone who doesn't believe in god is an atheist. Therefore, nihilists such as the ones in question are atheists.

[Chaossaber314]

Quote by: Tim Is the documentary on the web anywhere? I'm curious to see it. regarding your second paragraph, my opinion of him just dipped even lower (if that was possible). That's one of the more hateful, self-centered sentiments I've ever encountered.

I saw it on ReleaseLog about a month ago. It's probably on all the torrent sites by now. I'm not sure if it's a public release film or not so the legality is questionable.

[Winter wind]

Quote by: ty I know that groups like the WBC do not provide good representations of the Christian faith, but I am wondering what could possibly lead to anybody going as far as picketing a marine funeral?

Growing up in a homogeneous sociaty, where only one idea is allowed.
That's how you get people who don't accept new ideas.

The WBC are like the "crazy kool aid" cults.

[gela]

I thought atheism was characterized by disbelief? I don't get it. You can't make that claim and then proceed to describe the beliefs that you claim are inherent to all atheists. You're contradicting yourself. My understanding was that anyone who doesn't believe in god is an atheist. Therefore, nihilists such as the ones in question are atheists.

Well, Atheists all believe that there is only one life.
It isn't correct to assume that it encourages a point of view that assumes life is worth nothing.

I shouldn't have used the word 'Atheists' in my post, instead I should have used 'Atheism'

[Tim]

Quote by: Chaossaber314 I saw it on ReleaseLog about a month ago. It's probably on all the torrent sites by now. I'm not sure if it's a public release film or not so the legality is questionable.

Thanks, I'll check it out.

[JaneDoe321]

Quote by: Tim I don't think Christian extremists have any real bearing on American society.

I disagree. I think that the fringe lunatics make the lunatics a step IN from the fringe seem less insane, thereby one step closer to "acceptable" "Well, they're looney, but they just want the 10 Commandments in the classroom, at least they're not shouting God Hates Fags at the baseball game!"

[JaneDoe321]

Quote by: Kakumei Lol, this is why I choose a religion that helps people and not drives them away.

Aren't you LDS? I have read about people not being allowed to witness weddings because they weren't church members, and shunning, etc.

I'm not trying to slam your religion per se, but it doesn't seem very helpful and welcoming, to be honest.