Creation

[Winter wind]

"Why" is the stuff of philosophy. All science can do is reveal the relationships between processes. Perhaps there isn't a why. There had to be a way nature worked. Why this one and not another? Who can say? Is there another option?

Well religion is philosophy.

And the other option could be a two dimensional spacial pattern, different mathematical constants (pi is one), oh and different particles of energy. But these are just ideas.

[Eraldo Coil]

I personally believe that God always was, as the bible says. As a christian it is somewhat hard to grasp this concept. Where did God come from then? These are questions that cannot be answered. There is no way to prove it. The greatest aspect of it all is faith. God wants a people to love him. I guess life is like a test of faith. If God could be defined by science and logically proven then everyone would hop on board the faith train so to speak.

[Jack]

If God could be defined by science and logically proven then everyone would hop on board the faith train so to speak.

And that would be...terrible, wonderful, too easy, just what he'd want, unfair to the martyrs, so easy a caveman could do it?
What would be so bad about any god letting itself be known to its creation?

(BTW-welcome to Volconvo!)

[Tycoon]

I personally believe that God always was, as the bible says. As a christian it is somewhat hard to grasp this concept. Where did God come from then?

If you accept the concept that God always existed, then what is so hard to accept about the concept that a certain amount of matter always existed and makes up our universe through natural and scientific ways!?

These are questions that cannot be answered. There is no way to prove it. The greatest aspect of it all is faith. God wants a people to love him. I guess life is like a test of faith. If God could be defined by science and logically proven then everyone would hop on board the faith train so to speak.

You say your biggest reason to believe in God is faith. Usually when you have faith in something or someone, it's for a reason. You can have faith in a friend because they have proven themselves trustworthy or dependable. In what way has God earned your faith, or your trust? Look at all the suffering in the world. I know the old argument, it's our free will that causes this suffering, and God wants us to overcome it. But that belief is also built on faith. Some more of that good old Christian circular logic.

I just want you to consider that God has really not earned your faith.

[Eraldo Coil]

What would be so bad about any god letting itself be known to its creation?

There is nothing wrong with this statement. Infact God does reveal himself, however we are not listening. The greatest way that God reveals himself to us is through the Bible. How many people really read the Bible you may ask? Once again, we are not listening. Another question that may be asked. How do you know the Bible is all real, that we can really trust wahta it says? It all leads back to the faith aspect.

You say your biggest reason to believe in God is faith. Usually when you have faith in something or someone, it's for a reason. You can have faith in a friend because they have proven themselves trustworthy or dependable. In what way has God earned your faith, or your trust?

Very good question, and also one to be expected. God has blessed me with so much. This may be considered a bad comparison but It will have to do.When we vote as citizens of democracy why do we vote?.We vote because we want our needs to met.When we vote, are we not putting our faith in these politicians? What exactly have they done to earn our faith?

Thank You i hope to enjoy myself.

[Dr_Acula]

Quote by: Winter wind ya, but the world runs according to some kind of laws. The question is why those laws. It's almost like living inside a clock. You can learn all you want about the machinery, and yet never learn how the things got there in the first place. I'm not saying the logical answer is God, I'm saying we don't know what put the machines there, if anything at all.

What makes you think the result of every single experiment ever made (and therefore the belief there are predictable patterns in nature) wasn´t just a big coincidence? Of course I dont believe this myself, but it is much more likely than a god. The world might or might not work according to arbitrary laws. I think it does.

again: the "machinery was there cos thats its natural state".

The object of change. I mean, without the chaos that is the universe, nothing should exist.

I repeat myself: what should or should not is nothing more than a barrier that stops us from scientific breakthroughs. Like Einstein: he though the universe shouldn´t be random, and that prevented him from taking part in the "quantum revolution" (or wahtever). The other guys just accepted what they saw, discarding what they might believe or want.

"donnt tell god what to dowith his dice" -niels bhr

unfortunately i dont know that whole supersymmetry thing so i cant really argue about it.

[Tycoon]

There is nothing wrong with this statement. Infact God does reveal himself, however we are not listening. The greatest way that God reveals himself to us is through the Bible. How many people really read the Bible you may ask? Once again, we are not listening. Another question that may be asked. How do you know the Bible is all real, that we can really trust wahta it says? It all leads back to the faith aspect.

The bible is not proof of God's existence. There is no reason to believe it is the word of God.

Very good question, and also one to be expected. God has blessed me with so much. This may be considered a bad comparison but It will have to do.When we vote as citizens of democracy why do we vote?.We vote because we want our needs to met.When we vote, are we not putting our faith in these politicians? What exactly have they done to earn our faith?

Whatever you have you have earned yourself. And it isn't a good example, because there are so many people in the world who don't have anything.

And when we vote for politicians, it's because they support ideas that we want. We have to pick somebody, and while they might not be perfect, you pick the best choice.

[Winter wind]

Quote by: dr acula What makes you think the result of every single experiment ever made (and therefore the belief there are predictable patterns in nature) wasn´t just a big coincidence? Of course I dont believe this myself, but it is much more likely than a god. The world might or might not work according to arbitrary laws. I think it does.

?
Sorry, I'm not too bright. Could you explain that again?

again: the "machinery was there cos thats its natural state".

That's like saying the earth is flat because that's its natural state.

unfortunately i dont know that whole supersymmetry thing so i cant really argue about it.

supersymmetry basically says that if you combine all matter and anti-matter in the universe, the result would be a vacuum. Nothing.

[GSM:Xtreme]

I haven't read the whole thread so if this was already asked excuse me, but:

if God doesn't need a creator, why does the universe? It seems like a simple question, but the double standard annoys me.

Insight, anybody?

[Winter wind]

Quote by: gsm:xtreme if God doesn't need a creator, why does the universe? It seems like a simple question, but the double standard annoys me. Insight, anybody?

His version of the Sims?

I donno. Maybe we can comprehend it, maybe not. But my guess is if an entity were to existence in a void, it would be kinda lonely.

[loser]

Clearly not credible.

You ramble on through jumbled thoughts fixated on heat and then you say the above? LOL Shall I take you as credible?

First, don't think of God as "heat"; think of God as Energy.

Now, it's pointless to debate about origins because life SHOULDN'T exist but it does. Since ANY life exists then ANY life CAN exist. Because we exist, then God can exist, aliens can exist, other dimensions can exist, etc., etc...we cannot put a limit on EXISTENCE. The size of the universe compared to the infinitesimally minuteness of our existence leaves plenty of room for even greater intelligence than our own to exist elsewhere. Also, not only is our size so small as to be immeasurable on the scale of the universe but out duration of existence is also minuscule compared to that of the universe.

It takes a pretty small mind to believe that we are the Masters of the Universe.

Fortunately, we indeed have that.

This means that God has gone through an 'evolution' of some sort, learning things, and that it woudl be difficult for something to talk to people unless He learned the dialect too.

I talk to my dogs all the time but I never did learn their "dialect". Instead, they learned mine. It must have been instinct.

In fact early man could not speak at all, but used body language to convey their messages,

That's not a fact, at all! In fact, the first man was so much more intelligence than men today that men today don't realize just how stupid they are and how much more intelligent the men of the past were.

That's really stupid...it's what entropy has done to the brain of man (You understand about thermodynamics, don't you?).

All the things in the universe are in balance, so there is no way that an evolving God could have created them to work out so well,..

I use to think that way but I quit using drugs long ago (so the synapses have been repaired and the neural network restored).

God doesn't make sense. He's the tremendous cop out left over from a time when we didn't know any better. Unfortunately, even though we know better now, we have millions of people brainwashing each new generation to believe in god.

Two surveys were carried out at Central Connecticut University in 1984 and 1994 which asked students their opinions on a variety of topics, including religion, the paranormal, and fringe theories in archaeology. In 1984, 27% accepted that Earth had been visited by extraterrestrials; it rose to 31% in the 1994 survey. In 1984, 12% believed in the curse of Tutankhamen, doubling to 24% by 1994. Both surveys showed that 29% of the students believed in the lost continent of Atlantis. (Source: Ancient Mysteries, Peter James and Nick Thorpe, 1999; Introduction, XIV)

A recent Australian poll (Reader's Digest) of 750 adults had 67% believing that the earth had been visited by aliens.


In a 2002 Roper poll, 48% of Americans believe UFO's have visited Earth. SCIFI.COM | UFOLOGY Resource Center - The Roper Poll

For a lot of polls, visit http://www.ufoevidence.org/topics/pu...inionpolls.htm

Although Zhavric would have you believe that ancient man was MORE superstitious than modern man, the data is overwhelmingly conclusive that man is becoming more 'superstitious' year after year after year. The data confirms what I have been saying all along: that mankind is regressing in intelligence.

It's either that or mankind is becoming more aware of (through more contact with) extraterrestrial life.

Take your pick.

Yes, it does. This disproves your god claim which requires god to be able to create energy from nothing. You, sir, need to start arguing more honestly.

Since God IS energy and the SOURCE of all matter and existence, your argument is FALSE. You need to start arguing more intelligently.

[loser]

Gallo said:

As you must be aware, it isn't the business of science to delve into unsupported spiritualism and to postulate what happened in a time before time. That is the realm of religion... ...If spiritualists want to postulate that their god did it, OK. There aren't any observations the support or debunk that anyway. With no evidence one way or the other, if someone wants to postulate a magic being they can do so.... ...And that's why so many scientists don't give a rats tootie about religion.

It makes you wonder why (since it's beyond the realm of science) scientists spend so much time trying to refute/discredit/lambast those who DO believe.

But why invent magical, supernatural causes for natural events?

Unknown and unexplained science has always seemed to be 'magic' to the ill-informed but should 'scientists' be this superstitious? There's nothing magical about the supernatural; the supernatural is SUPER natural...it's science (though it's science beyond the ability of most men).

I'm quite alarmed at the extent of confusion displayed by modern scientists who really don't have a grasp of science at all. It's scary.

gallo, you really need to educate yourself on what magic is and on what religion is. Though the two can often be confused (just like science and magic), they are not the same. Your strong personal feelings about religion have clouded any objectivity that you may have ever had. Your constant denigration of religion/God/the supernatural along with your consequential false characterization of it as "magic" leaves one little choice but to dismiss your arguments as subjectively biased and unbefitting of serious consideration.

In short, your tirades on "magic" have become quite tedious, at best.

I don't need to know how the universe was created to know the god hypothesis contradicts proven scientific facts.

Qualify that 'rabbit-out-of-a-hat' statement. How does the existence of God contradict PROVEN scientific FACTS?

To see the disingenuous hypocrisy of religious people who embrace NOMA, imagine that forensic archeologists, by some unlikely set of circumstances, discovered DNA evidence demonstrating that Jesus was born of a virgin mother and had no father. If NOMA enthusiasts were sincere, they should dismiss the archeologists' DNA out of hand: "Irrelevant. Scientific evidence has no bearing on theological questions. Wrong magisterium." Does anyone seriously imagine that they would say anything remotely like that? You can bet your boots that not just the fundamentalists but every professor of theology and every bishop in the land would trumpet the archeological evidence to the skies.

That is utter nonsense and nothing could be further from the truth. Whatever are you rambling on about? In the first place, what Stephen Gould claims is irrelevant...NOMA is a stupid acronym for an even more stupid concept.

In a good religion, God is real. Since God is real, science can verify His existence. If His 'physical' presence is beyond our reach (like black holes or dark matter), then His reality can only be surmised. Defining God may be equally difficult. If He was to visit mankind, His presence would expand our present understanding of things 'supernatural'. Yet, would His presence cause mankind to start believing in 'God' or would it actually cause more people to reject Him (as an invading alien)?

At any rate, on scientific grounds, do you see a problem with the birth of Jesus to a virgin mother and NO human father?

If so, what is your contention? Is it impossible?

Either Jesus had a father or he didn't. The question is a scientific one, and scientific evidence, if any were available, would be used to settle it. The same is true of any miracle — and the deliberate and intentional creation of the universe would have to have been the mother and father of all miracles. Either it happened or it didn't. It is a fact, one way or the other, and in our state of uncertainty we can put a probability on it — an estimate that may change as more information comes in.

On this, we agree. Except...how would "the deliberate and intentional creation of the universe" be any more "the mother and father of all miracles" than the non-intentional random and accidental creation of the universe? The miracle of existence EXISTS with or without God. The difference? If God exists, we will gain knowledge about all creation one day. If He doesn't, we will never know.

[loser]

He parted the red sea according to the Bible. I think he can break the rules of physics according to Christianity.

Actually, He explained the parting in scientific terms (an east wind blowing all night). There was no breaking of the rules of physics. Like all of the miracles in the Bible, it was just applied scientific principles, advanced though they may be. Whether you are talking about columns of fire or flaming chariots or wheels within wheels or voices from the sky, it's all just science. No magic, pure science.

But why postulate a magical being when there is no need to do so

Magic is for the superstitious, like people who come up with ideas like evolution. Religions are not based on magic (though magic has permeated religion to an extent, just like it has science). They are based on actual contact with extraterrestrials. Just like the Great Flood account in the Bible (and elsewhere) is not based on myths or magic but on an actual event.

Why postulate magical pseudohistory such as the Theory of Evolution when there is no need to do so?

Why couldn't the cause of creation be natural rather than supernatural. If this being that you invent can be eternal, then so can energy and matter.

It can and how could it be any other way?

This is following the assumption that humans need a higher being as a creator. The result of that assumption is God. Stick true to your faulty assumptions and God needs a creator as well.

With or without God, we are faced with the same dilemma. Even abiogenesis requires that there first be matter. Existence cannot be reasoned.

The reason worms can't speak, for example, is because it is not in the condition of their nature.

Why would you make that assumption? As far as I know, worms CAN talk (just not in the way that we talk)!

He's beyond our current comprehension.

Creation is pretty easy to comprehend. We can look around and see examples of creation everywhere we look. By extension, we know that there must be a creator by the existence of the creation. For example, when we look at a bridge, we KNOW someone built it.

If man is supposedly intelligent and we know how to create things, why do we find it so difficult to conceive of a greater intelligence than ours creating things that predate our own existence? Why is it so hard for some to conceive of a Creator that created us and passed down that same creative 'fire'?

I always thought that God would also be the ultimate scientist, and from that he understands the laws. I just know how to use them better than we do.

You have always thought well.

[loser]

That, and our mutual tendency to disregard fairy tales.

If you disregard fairy tales, you won't be able to distinguish fact from fiction. It is only through comparative analysis that you can form distinctions. A sign of a closed mind incapable of learning is a mind that disregards what it does not understand or believe or agree with.

In attempting to "disregard fairy tales", you become mired in a fairy tale of your own making.

Fear has never been conducive to growth.

What would be so bad about any god letting itself be known to its creation?

It's exactly what the Christian God has done and it's not bad, it's wonderful. Look what Paul said:

(MKJV)Act 17:23 For as I passed by and saw the things you worship, I also found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Not knowing then whom you worship, I make Him known to you.

In what way has God earned your faith, or your trust?

In too many ways to tell.

Look at all the suffering in the world.

So, then, we don't exist because of this? What's your point?

I just want you to consider that God has really not earned your faith.

I want you to consider that you don't have a clue as to what you are saying. Perhaps what you meant to say is that God has really not earned YOUR faith. Speak for yourself, not for others.

Whatever you have you have earned yourself.

Think again. What you have been given was through no effort of yours.

The bible is not proof of God's existence. There is no reason to believe it is the word of God.

If you had ever read it you would know that to be false.

[gallo]

Quote by: loser It makes you wonder why (since it's beyond the realm of science) scientists spend so much time trying to refute/discredit/lambast those who DO believe.

Because so many idiot creationists try to claim that their religion is scientific and try to jam it down children's throats in our public schools as science. When idiocy is postulated as science, then it is legitimate for scientists to show it as idiocy. If superstitious religionists would practice their hocus pokus without trying to gain the approval of science by inventing "scientific evidence" and without trying to force their magic rituals and monuments on everyone, then you would have nothing to complain about.

Unknown and unexplained science has always seemed to be 'magic' to the ill-informed but should 'scientists' be this superstitious? There's nothing magical about the supernatural; the supernatural is SUPER natural...it's science (though it's science beyond the ability of most men).

So you couldn't answer the question and just made up this pucky about how science is superstitious. There is no evidence that anything supernatural exists. It is invented to make ignorant people feel better. Of course, to those who are ignorant of science (like creationists), science might seem magical. However, most scientists that I have ever known were quite familiar with religion, as is true in my case. I am not ignorant of the superstition of religion. In fact, some of my minor degrees were earned in the formal study of Christian theology.

I'm quite alarmed at the extent of confusion displayed by modern scientists who really don't have a grasp of science at all. It's scary.

How would you know? Not only do you display ignorance of science, it seems that you maintain that ignorance intentionally.

gallo, you really need to educate yourself on what magic is and on what religion is. Though the two can often be confused (just like science and magic), they are not the same.

Then would you prefer that I call religion mere superstition? Your religion has no basis in reality. As I mentioned, because of my formal education in religion, I am quite clear on what it is. That is also true of science.

Your strong personal feelings about religion have clouded any objectivity that you may have ever had.

Nah. I just know more about it than you do.

Your constant denigration of religion/God/the supernatural along with your consequential false characterization of it as "magic" leaves one little choice but to dismiss your arguments as subjectively biased and unbefitting of serious consideration.

Then you have no serious answer? I didn't think so. I've asked you for evidence to support your claims of miracles and you can't offer any. You have only your belief in an old book of mythology.

In short, your tirades on "magic" have become quite tedious, at best.

As have your tirades about the truth of a book of mythology.

Qualify that 'rabbit-out-of-a-hat' statement. How does the existence of God contradict PROVEN scientific FACTS?

Yet another example of how christians in general and you in particular are liars. I never made that remark or anything similar. And yet, you include it in a response to my posts. Your dishonesty is below contempt.

[Jack]

The data confirms what I have been saying all along: that mankind is regressing in intelligence.

Judging by the increase in fanatical religious belief, I'm tempted to agree with you. I shall endeavor to resist that temptation.

[GSM:Xtreme]

Quote by: loser Although Zhavric would have you believe that ancient man was MORE superstitious than modern man, the data is overwhelmingly conclusive that man is becoming more 'superstitious' year after year after year. The data confirms what I have been saying all along: that mankind is regressing in intelligence.

Or, one could speculate that more people are coming into contact with extraterrestrials, no?

And I felt left out after reading your 3 post rant and not seeing my double standard point in in. :(

[Tycoon]

If you disregard fairy tales, you won't be able to distinguish fact from fiction. It is only through comparative analysis that you can form distinctions. A sign of a closed mind incapable of learning is a mind that disregards what it does not understand or believe or agree with.

No, the mark of a closed mind is a man who is taught Christianity since childhood and so never questions it, but rather finds excuses to ignore scientific evidence and attributes his excuses to faith.

It's exactly what the Christian God has done and it's not bad, it's wonderful. Look what Paul said:

For as I passed by and saw the things you worship, I also found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Not knowing then whom you worship, I make Him known to you.

Excuse me, but that doesn't seem like God revealing himself to anybody, it seems like Paul preaching about his own God.

In too many ways to tell.

Oh, please do tell. Humor me.

So, then, we don't exist because of this? What's your point?

Why would you believe an omnipotent God, able to end all suffering with a single thought would exist? Every time evidence is brought against Christianity, Christians fall back on "faith". Well, God hasn't earned any faith.

I want you to consider that you don't have a clue as to what you are saying. Perhaps what you meant to say is that God has really not earned YOUR faith. Speak for yourself, not for others.

God hasn't earned anybody's faith, and I'd like you to give me one single reason why He has earned yours.

Think again. What you have been given was through no effort of yours.

This is exactly the kind of crap that Christianity spews all the time. My parents are downstairs making dinner right now. They earned that food, they worked hard at their jobs, and to attribute it to God is quite frankly an insult. When I move out of here, I am going to have to work to support myself, and I will earn money to buy myself a house. God isn't going to give it to me, and what you have just said has no truth in it whatsoever.

If you had ever read it you would know that to be false.

I have read it, and I see no reason to believe a word that it says. A document is not proof of its own truth.

[Tycoon]

Actually, He explained the parting in scientific terms (an east wind blowing all night). There was no breaking of the rules of physics. Like all of the miracles in the Bible, it was just applied scientific principles, advanced though they may be. Whether you are talking about columns of fire or flaming chariots or wheels within wheels or voices from the sky, it's all just science. No magic, pure science.

And how was that wind created? Was it designed to exist since the Big Bang? Because, if that is true, then we have no free will, and God is not real.