Invitation to Challange the LDS (mormon) Religion

[Kakumei]

If there are those of you out there that want to challange the beliefs of the LDS religion, I am here to defend it on the behalf. Ill also answer questions about the belief, It seems many people here do not like or are not educated in the matter.

[Winter wind]

Mormons rock (except they don't drink tea).

but really, but it would be easier if you post the common misconceptions and then tell us why they are wrong.

[Zhavric]

Sure. Let's begin with what's on exmormon.org:

The "First Vision" story in the form presented to you was unknown until 1838, eighteen years after its alleged occurrence and almost ten years after Smith had begun his missionary efforts. The oldest (but quite different) version of the vision is in Smith's own handwriting, dating from about 1832 (still at least eleven years afterwards), and says that only one personage, Jesus Christ, appeared to him. It also mentions nothing about a revival. It also contradicts the later account as to whether Smith had already decided that no church was true. Still a third version of this event is recorded as a recollection in Smith's diary, fifteen years after the alleged vision, where one unidentified "personage" appeared, then another, with a message implying that neither was the Son. They were accompanied by many "angels," which are not mentioned in the official version you have been told about. Which version is correct, if any? Why was this event, now said by the church to be so important, unknown for so long? NOTES


Careful study of the religious history of the locale where Smith lived in 1820 casts doubt on whether there actually was such an extensive revival that year as Smith and his family later described as associated with the "First Vision." The revivals in 1817 and 1824 better fit what Smith described later. NOTES


In 1828, eight years after he supposedly had been told by God himself to join no church, Smith applied for membership in a local Methodist church. Other members of his family had joined the Presbyterians. NOTES


Contemporaries of Smith consistently described him as something of a confidence man, whose chief source of income was hiring out to local farmers to help them find buried treasure by the use of folk magic and "seer stones." Smith was actually tried in 1826 on a charge of moneydigging. NOTES It is interesting that none of his critics seemed to be aware of his claim to have been visited by God in 1820, even though in his 1838 account he claimed that he had suffered "great persecution" for telling people of his vision.


The only persons who claimed to have actually seen the gold plates were eleven close friends of Smith (many of them related to each other). Their testimonies are printed in the front of every copy of the Book of Mormon. No disinterested third party was ever allowed to examine them. They were retrieved by the angel at some unrecorded point. Most of the witnesses later abandoned Smith and left his movement. Smith then called them "liars." NOTES


Smith produced most of the "translation" not by reading the plates through the Urim and Thummim (described as a pair of sacred spectacles), but by gazing at the same "seer stone" he had used for treasure hunting. He would place the stone into his hat, and then cover his face with it. For much of the time he was dictating, the gold plates were not even present, but in a hiding place. NOTES


The detailed history and civilization described in the Book of Mormon does not correspond to anything found by archaeologists anywhere in the Americas. The Book of Mormon describes a civilization lasting for a thousand years, covering both North and South America, which was familiar with horses, elephants, cattle, sheep, wheat, barley, steel, wheeled vehicles, shipbuilding, sails, coins, and other elements of Old World culture. But no trace of any of these supposedly very common things has ever been found in the Americas of that period. Nor does the Book of Mormon mention many of the features of the civilizations which really did exist at that time in the Americas. The LDS church has spent millions of dollars over many years trying to prove through archaeological research that the Book of Mormon is an accurate historical record, but they have failed to produce any convincing pre-columbian archeological evidence supporting the Book of Mormon story. In addition, whereas the Book of Mormon presents the picture of a relatively homogeneous people, with a single language and communication between distant parts of the Americas, the pre-columbian history of the Americas shows the opposite: widely disparate racial types (almost entirely east Asian - definitely not Semitic, as proven by recent DNA studies), and many unrelated native languages, none of which are even remotely related to Hebrew or Egyptian. NOTES


The people of the Book of Mormon were supposedly devout Jews observing the Law of Moses, but in the Book of Mormon there is almost no trace of their observance of Mosaic law or even an accurate knowledge of it. NOTES


Although Joseph Smith said that God had pronounced the completed translation of the plates as published in 1830 "correct," many changes have been made in later editions. Besides thousands of corrections of poor grammar and awkward wording in the 1830 edition, other changes have been made to reflect subsequent changes in some of the fundamental doctrine of the church. For example, an early change in wording modified the 1830 edition's acceptance of the doctrine of the Trinity, thus allowing Smith to introduce his later doctrine of multiple gods. A more recent change (1981) replaced "white" with "pure," apparently to reflect the change in the church's stance on the "curse" of the black race. NOTES


Joseph Smith said that the Book of Mormon contained the "fulness of the gospel." However, its teaching on many doctrinal subjects has been ignored or contradicted by the present LDS church, and many doctrines now said by the church to be essential are not even mentioned there. Examples are the church's position on the nature of God, the Virgin Birth, the Trinity, polygamy, Hell, priesthood, secret organizations, the nature of Heaven and salvation, temples, proxy ordinances for the dead, and many other matters. NOTES


Many of the basic historical notions found in the Book of Mormon had appeared in print already in 1825, just two years before Smith began producing the Book of Mormon, in a book called View of the Hebrews, by Ethan Smith (no relation) and published just a few miles from where Joseph Smith lived. A careful study of this obscure book led one LDS church official (the historian B. H. Roberts, 1857-1933) to confess that the evidence tended to show that the Book of Mormon was not an ancient record, but concocted by Joseph Smith himself, based on ideas he had read in the earlier book. NOTES


Although Mormons claim that God is guiding the LDS church through its president (who has the title "prophet, seer and revelator"), the successive "prophets" have repeatedly either led the church into undertakings that were dismal failures or failed to see approaching disaster. To mention only a few: the Kirtland Bank, the United Order, the gathering of Zion to Missouri, the Zion's Camp expedition, polygamy, the Deseret Alphabet NOTES. A recent example is the successful hoax perpetrated on the church by manuscript dealer Mark Hofmann in the 1980s. He succeeded in selling the church thousands of dollars worth of manuscripts which he had forged. The church and its "prophet, seer and revelator" accepted them as genuine historical documents. The church leaders learned the truth not from God, through revelation, but from non-Mormon experts and the police, after Hofmann was arrested for two murders he committed to cover up his hoax. This scandal was reported nationwide. NOTES


The secret temple ritual (the "endowment") was introduced by Smith in May, 1842, just two months after he had been initiated into Freemasonry. The LDS temple ritual closely resembles the Masonic ritual of that day. NOTES Smith explained that the Masons had corrupted the ancient (God-given) ritual by changing it and removing parts of it, and that he was restoring it to its "pure" and "original" (and complete) form, as revealed to him by God. In the years since, the LDS church has made many fundamental changes in the "pure and original" ritual as "restored" by Smith, mostly by removing major parts of it. NOTES


Many doctrines which were once taught by the LDS church, and held to be fundamental, essential and "eternal", have been abandoned. Whether we feel that the church was correct in abandoning them is not the point; rather, the point is that a church claiming to be the church of God takes one "everlasting" position at one time and the opposite position at another, all the time claiming to be proclaiming the word of God. Some examples are:

- The Adam-God doctrine (Adam is God the Father); NOTES
- the United Order (all property of church members is to be held in common, with title in the church);
- Plural Marriage (polygamy; a man must have more than one wife to attain the highest degree of heaven); NOTES
- the Curse of Cain (the black race is not entitled to hold God's priesthood because it is cursed; this doctrine was not abandoned until 1978); NOTES
- Blood Atonement (some sins - apostasy, adultery, murder, interracial marriage - must be atoned for by the shedding of the sinner's blood, preferably by someone appointed to do so by church authorities); NOTES

Continued...

[Zhavric]

Continued from the website mentioned above:

All of these doctrines were proclaimed by the reigning prophet to be the Word of God, "eternal," "everlasting," to govern the church "forevermore." All have been abandoned by the present church.


Joseph Smith's early revelations were collected and first published in 1833 in the Book of Commandments. God (as recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants Sections 1 and 67) supposedly testified by revelation that the revelations as published were true and correct. Because the Book of Commandments did not receive wide distribution (most copies were destroyed by angry opponents of the Mormons in Missouri, where it was published), they were republished - with additional revelations - as the Doctrine and Covenants in 1835 in Kirtland, Ohio. However, many of the revelations as published in Kirtland differed fundamentally from their versions as originally given. The changes generally gave more power and authority to Smith, and justified changes he was making in church organization and theology. The question naturally arises as to why revelations which God had pronounced correct needed to be revised. NOTES


Joseph Smith claimed to have received the priesthood (the only valid priesthood recognized by God) directly from resurrected beings (angels): the Aaronic Priesthood from John the Baptist and the Mechizedek (higher) Priesthood from Peter, James and John. However, the accounts of these visitations are contradictory and questionable. NOTES


Joseph Smith claimed to be a "translator" by the power of God. In addition to the Book of Mormon, he made several other "translations":

- The Book of Abraham, from Egyptian papyrus scrolls which came into his possession in 1835. He stated that the scrolls were written by the biblical Abraham "by his own hand." Smith's translation is now accepted as scripture by the LDS church, as part of its Pearl of Great Price. Smith also produced an "Egyptian Grammar" based on his translation. Modern scholars of ancient Egyptian agree that the scrolls are common Egyptian funeral scrolls, entirely pagan in nature, having nothing to do with Abraham, and from a period 2000 years later than Abraham. The "Grammar" has been said by Egyptologists to prove that Smith had no notion of the Egyptian language. It is pure fantasy: he made it up. NOTES

- The "Inspired Revision" of the King James Bible. Smith was commanded by God to retranslate the Bible because the existing translations contained errors. He completed his translation in 1833, but the church still uses the King James Version. NOTES

- The "Kinderhook Plates," a group of six metal plates with strange engraved characters, unearthed in 1843 near Kinderhook, Illinois, and examined by Smith, who began a "translation" of them. He never completed the translation, but he identified the plates as an "ancient record," and translated enough to identify the author as a descendant of Pharaoh. Local farmers later confessed that they had manufactured, engraved and buried the plates themselves as a hoax. They had apparently copied the characters from a Chinese tea box. NOTES


Joseph Smith claimed to be a "prophet." He frequently prophesied future events "by the power of God." Many of these prophecies are recorded in the LDS scripture Doctrine and Covenants. Almost none have been fulfilled, and many cannot now be fulfilled because the deeds to be done by the persons named were never done and those persons are now dead. Many prophecies included dates for their fulfillment, and those dates are now long past, the events never having occurred. NOTES


Joseph Smith died not as a martyr, but in a gun battle in which he fired a number of shots. He was in jail at the time, under arrest for having ordered the destruction of a Nauvoo newspaper which dared to print an exposure (which was true) of his secret sexual liaisons. At that time he had announced his candidacy for the presidency of the United States, set up a secret government, and secretly had himself crowned "King of the Kingdom of God." NOTES


Since the founding of the church down to the present day the church leaders have not hesitated to lie, to falsify documents, to rewrite or suppress history, or to do whatever is necessary to protect the image of the church. Many Mormon historians have been excommunicated from the church for publishing their findings on the truth of Mormon history. NOTES


Trying to determine the truth by relying entirely on the feelings one gets after praying is not a reliable way to learn the truth. One can easily deceive oneself into "feeling" something that is really not true at all. The only reliable way to get to the truth is to examine verifiable facts. NOTES


Mormonism includes many other unusual teachings which you will probably not be told about until you have been in the church for a long time. These teachings are not revealed to investigators or new converts because those people are not yet considered ready to have more than "milk" as doctrine. The Mormons also probably realize that if investigators knew of these unusual teachings they would not join the church. In addition to those mentioned elsewhere in this article, the following are noteworthy: NOTES

• God was once a man like us.
• God has a tangible body of flesh and bone.
• God lives on a planet near the star Kolob.
• God ("Heavenly Father") has at least one wife, our "Mother in Heaven," but she is so holy that we are not to discuss her nor pray to her.
• Jesus was married.
• We can become like God and rule over our own universe.
• There are many gods, ruling over their own worlds.
• Jesus and Satan ("Lucifer") are brothers, and they are our brothers - we are all spirit children of Heavenly Father
• Jesus Christ was conceived by God the Father by having sex with Mary, who was temporarily his wife.
• We should not pray to Jesus, nor try to feel a personal relationship with him.
• The "Lord" ("Jehovah") in the Old Testament is the being named Jesus in the New Testament, but different from "God the Father" ("Elohim").
• In the highest degree of the celestial kingdom some men will have more than one wife.
• Before coming to this earth we lived as spirits in a "pre-existence", during which we were tested; our position in this life (whether born to Mormons or savages, or in America or Africa) is our reward or punishment for our obedience in that life.
• Dark skin is a curse from God, the result of our sin, or the sin of our ancestors. If sufficiently righteous, a dark-skinned person will become light-skinned.
• The Garden of Eden was in Missouri. All humanity before the Great Flood lived in the western hemisphere. The Ark transported Noah and the other survivors to the eastern hemisphere.
• Not only will human beings be resurrected to eternal life, but also all animals - everything that has ever lived on earth - will be resurrected and dwell in heaven.
• Christ will not return to earth in any year that has seen a rainbow.
• Mormons should avoid traveling on water, since Satan rules the waters.
• The sun receives its light from the star Kolob.
• If a Gentile becomes Mormon, the Holy Ghost actually purges his Gentile blood and replaces it with Israelite blood.
• A righteous Mormon will actually see the face of God in the Mormon temple.
• You can identify a false angel by the color of his hair, or by offering to shake his hand.

[Zhavric]

To sum up, your religion was fabricated from the fanciful writings of a known con man. It was allowed to flourish by having all the people duped into believing it move to the middle of nowhere (Utah) where no one could explain that they'd been cheated. Like any good religion, the mormons had lots of babies that they then indoctrinated into the fold... each generation making rubes of the next and converting the impressionable.

So, congratulations. You belong to the 1800's version of Scientology.

/thread

[Technosoul]

Holy cow. That is a lot of chew on. Mr Z.

Why do they have only one father and so many mothers who have children that feel they do not have a sound family situation. Enlighten us on that. Why do they only send boys out on the bikes to preach about their Profit and not the girls?

Why did they lower the age of consent for girls to get married when that does not conform to the mainstream laws of the country they are within?

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Technosoul Holy cow. That is a lot of chew on. Mr Z.

Well, there's a lot of BS involved in mormonism.

Why do they have only one father and so many mothers who have children that feel they do not have a sound family situation. Enlighten us on that. Why do they only send boys out on the bikes to preach about their Profit and not the girls?

Because the religion was started by a bunch of male pigs who wanted to sleep with lots of women... and because the church feels that women would be put in danger.

Why did they lower the age of consent for girls to get married when that does not conform to the mainstream laws of the country they are within?

You're thinking of the FLDS. Seperate group based on the original doctrine. It's ironic: You have the LDS church that's turned against it's own heritage to conform with societal norms and you have the FLDS that have stayed true to their heritage and in doing so look like @$$holes to the rest of society for marrying off their 14 year olds.

[LadiesMan217]

I would to know how much, if any of, the South Park episode on Mormonism is made up. If they misconstrued anything about your beliefs please let me know, if they got it right pretty much then I just have to say that it sounds pretty dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb.

[Technosoul]

I have debated a number of Mormons, all of which were women by the way, and they are really prepared to counter anyone who finds their religion in error. If you have accepted the challenge you have just stuck your head into a trap. But you still have time to pull out before they explain their self to you as you just gave them the right to start preaching. You will not make a dent in their beliefs as far as it goes to sway them into changing their minds. So you might as well give up such hope right now.

[Aussie]

Quote by: LadiesMan217 I would to know how much, if any of, the South Park episode on Mormonism is made up. If they misconstrued anything about your beliefs please let me know, if they got it right pretty much then I just have to say that it sounds pretty dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb.

Ha ha ha, i was thinking that while reading Zhavrics post. Its about as credible a story as the Scientology one. I'm constantly amazed at the power religion can have over one's common sense and logic.

The rebuttals should be quite creative!

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Aussie The rebuttals should be quite creative!

There won't be one.

Christians (Mormons especially) are brought up to believe that they're constantly "examining" their faith. That they're asking tough questions... and that their religion can stand up to their tough questions. In reality, they only ever ask questions which lead back to the conclusions drawn by their faith. They're never exposed to real questions.

When regular Christians are exposed to real questions, they usually do poorly to moderately well. The story of Jesus, though false, has only a few critical falsehoods. We know there were Romans. We know there were Jews. Hell, we even know there was a Pontias Pilate. The christ myth is a work of historical fiction that was spun by people in the region at the time it was happening and then re-worked by the only literate people around (Romans/church).

When Mormons are exposed to real questions, they usually go to pieces. Their story is too outlandish to be taken seriously. The real achilles heel of it all is the idea there was some grand Western-style civilization that existed in North America. Which is crap. There was nothing of the sort here. The most impressive argument I've ever seen come from a Mormon was also one of the worst. He was convinced that because one native american tribe shared one inflection of speech with one Jewish tribe that this was the critical piece of evidence that somehow magically proved everything. This is about as smart as saying, "Ohio means 'good morning' in Japanese. Therefor, the state of Ohio must have been founded by the Japanese!"

So Kakumei isn't going to reply. My guess is that he came here and made that post because someone at his church gave him a pat on the back for some particularly convincing bit of nonsense he was able to regurgitate in church. Maybe he won an argument with a friend. Who knows? It's sad really. Several of the points I posted from exmormon.org aren't good arguments. Maybe he'll find those and try to go after them.

Maybe not.

[Kakumei]

Quote by: Zhavric There won't be one. Christians (Mormons especially) are brought up to believe that they're constantly "examining" their faith. That they're asking tough questions... and that their religion can stand up to their tough questions. In reality, they only ever ask questions which lead back to the conclusions drawn by their faith. They're never exposed to real questions. When regular Christians are exposed to real questions, they usually do poorly to moderately well. The story of Jesus, though false, has only a few critical falsehoods. We know there were Romans. We know there were Jews. Hell, we even know there was a Pontias Pilate. The christ myth is a work of historical fiction that was spun by people in the region at the time it was happening and then re-worked by the only literate people around (Romans/church). When Mormons are exposed to real questions, they usually go to pieces. Their story is too outlandish to be taken seriously. The real achilles heel of it all is the idea there was some grand Western-style civilization that existed in North America. Which is crap. There was nothing of the sort here. The most impressive argument I've ever seen come from a Mormon was also one of the worst. He was convinced that because one native american tribe shared one inflection of speech with one Jewish tribe that this was the critical piece of evidence that somehow magically proved everything. This is about as smart as saying, "Ohio means 'good morning' in Japanese. Therefor, the state of Ohio must have been founded by the Japanese!" So Kakumei isn't going to reply. My guess is that he came here and made that post because someone at his church gave him a pat on the back for some particularly convincing bit of nonsense he was able to regurgitate in church. Maybe he won an argument with a friend. Who knows? It's sad really. Several of the points I posted from exmormon.org aren't good arguments. Maybe he'll find those and try to go after them. Maybe not.

Oh, thanks, I love your overdeveloped sence of pride and abitlity to believe everything you are told about the LDS religion to be true. Im not even going to find the not good arguments, they are pointless. Even more sadly, you basically used your comments from an anit-mormon site to attack me, my question is, do you even really know what you quoted?

[Kakumei]

Quote by: Technosoul I have debated a number of Mormons, all of which were women by the way, and they are really prepared to counter anyone who finds their religion in error. If you have accepted the challenge you have just stuck your head into a trap. But you still have time to pull out before they explain their self to you as you just gave them the right to start preaching. You will not make a dent in their beliefs as far as it goes to sway them into changing their minds. So you might as well give up such hope right now.

Good assumption, but that is not the point of my doing this.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Kakumei Oh, thanks, I love your overdeveloped sence of pride and abitlity to believe everything you are told about the LDS religion to be true. Im not even going to find the not good arguments, they are pointless. Even more sadly, you basically used your comments from an anit-mormon site to attack me, my question is, do you even really know what you quoted?

Let's pretend, for a moment, that this is a debate site. Let's pretend that you didn't completely prove me right by ignoring the lion share of text that I quoted. Let's pretend that there isn't tremendous irony in you accusing me of believing everything I'm told... Let's pretend all that and have you actually show up to this debate by address at least some of the points raised on exmormon. Which I understand quite clearly. It accurately provides an explanation for the origin of your bizarre and false religion.

[Kakumei]

Quote by: Technosoul Holy cow. That is a lot of chew on. Mr Z. Why do they have only one father and so many mothers who have children that feel they do not have a sound family situation. Enlighten us on that. Why do they only send boys out on the bikes to preach about their Profit and not the girls? Why did they lower the age of consent for girls to get married when that does not conform to the mainstream laws of the country they are within?

The first part of the post, a male should serve a mission to give service to the Lord. They go at 19 years old and serve 2 years. This is 20% of there life at this point. Women dont because much of there service taking care of children and more of all, going through the pains of having them. That goes back to "what all counts as service to the Lord?"

[Kakumei]

This is actually fun. Ill adress the beliefs, and maybe and explination.

T- actual church belief
f- lie by the anti-mormons.

God was once a man like us. t

God has a tangible body of flesh and bone. t

God lives on a planet near the star Kolob. t

God ("Heavenly Father") has at least one wife, our "Mother in Heaven," but she is so holy that we are not to discuss her nor pray to her. hmm dunno.

Jesus was married. f (will be married, read Revelations)

We can become like God and rule over our own universe. t

There are many gods, ruling over their own worlds. t

Jesus and Satan ("Lucifer") are brothers, and they are our brothers - we are all spirit children of Heavenly Father t

Jesus Christ was conceived by God the Father by having sex with Mary, who was temporarily his wife. f

We should not pray to Jesus, nor try to feel a personal relationship with him. f

The "Lord" ("Jehovah") in the Old Testament is the being named Jesus in the New Testament, but different from "God the Father" ("Elohim"). t
(this goes back to latin translations and stuff)

In the highest degree of the celestial kingdom some men will have more than one wife. i dunno

Before coming to this earth we lived as spirits in a "pre-existence", t

during which we were tested; our position in this life (whether born to Mormons or savages, or in America or Africa) is our reward or punishment for our obedience in that life. f
Dark skin is a curse from God, the result of our sin, or the sin of our ancestors. If sufficiently righteous, a dark-skinned person will become light-skinned. f

The Garden of Eden was in Missouri. All humanity before the Great Flood lived in the western hemisphere. The Ark transported Noah and the other survivors to the eastern hemisphere. t (i think)

Not only will human beings be resurrected to eternal life, but also all animals - everything that has ever lived on earth - will be resurrected and dwell in heaven. t

Christ will not return to earth in any year that has seen a rainbow. f

Mormons should avoid traveling on water, since Satan rules the waters. f

The sun receives its light from the star Kolob. uhh, i dunno
If a Gentile becomes Mormon, the Holy Ghost actually purges his Gentile blood and replaces it with Israelite blood. f

A righteous Mormon will actually see the face of God in the Mormon temple. I dunno

You can identify a false angel by the color of his hair, or by offering to shake his hand. t and f. (Hair is f, t, because they believe an angel has a resurrected body combine with a spirit.)

This was actually quite fun, seeing as how I myself have a little more research now. ^_^ Anything else to address?

[Kakumei]

Quote by: Zhavric You're thinking of the FLDS. Seperate group based on the original doctrine. It's ironic: You have the LDS church that's turned against it's own heritage to conform with societal norms and you have the FLDS that have stayed true to their heritage and in doing so look like @$$holes to the rest of society for marrying off their 14 year olds.

No, cause in the book of Mormon, it teaches the religion to conform to the laws of the land. Sounds more like a smart religion if you ask me.

[Kakumei]

- The Book of Abraham, from Egyptian papyrus scrolls which came into his possession in 1835. He stated that the scrolls were written by the biblical Abraham "by his own hand." Smith's translation is now accepted as scripture by the LDS church, as part of its Pearl of Great Price. Smith also produced an "Egyptian Grammar" based on his translation. Modern scholars of ancient Egyptian agree that the scrolls are common Egyptian funeral scrolls, entirely pagan in nature, having nothing to do with Abraham, and from a period 2000 years later than Abraham. The "Grammar" has been said by Egyptologists to prove that Smith had no notion of the Egyptian language. It is pure fantasy: he made it up. NOTES

This is one of my favorites, because they dont have the same papyri that Joseph Smith originally had. That being said, how can you prove whats false if you dont have anything to test? Its like trying to experiment on a monkeys body, when you dont have a monkeys body.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Kakumei God was once a man like us. t God has a tangible body of flesh and bone. t God lives on a planet near the star Kolob. t We can become like God and rule over our own universe. t There are many gods, ruling over their own worlds. t Jesus and Satan ("Lucifer") are brothers, and they are our brothers - we are all spirit children of Heavenly Father t The "Lord" ("Jehovah") in the Old Testament is the being named Jesus in the New Testament, but different from "God the Father" ("Elohim"). t (this goes back to latin translations and stuff) Before coming to this earth we lived as spirits in a "pre-existence", t The Garden of Eden was in Missouri. All humanity before the Great Flood lived in the western hemisphere. The Ark transported Noah and the other survivors to the eastern hemisphere. t (i think) Not only will human beings be resurrected to eternal life, but also all animals - everything that has ever lived on earth - will be resurrected and dwell in heaven. t You can identify a false angel by the color of his hair, or by offering to shake his hand. t and f. (Hair is f, t, because they believe an angel has a resurrected body combine with a spirit.)

All of the above which you claim to be what mormons actually believe is BS. Seriously, why would you believe something so outlandish? This is flying spahgetti monster caliber nonsense, man. Planet Kolob? Garden of eden in Missouri? Are you out of your fracking mind?

Anything else to address?

Oh, I don't know... how about the REST of what I posted?

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Kakumei No, cause in the book of Mormon, it teaches the religion to conform to the laws of the land. Sounds more like a smart religion if you ask me.

So, let me get this straight. If I pass a law that says, "Mormonism is silly and should be outlawed. Parents should teach their kids not to be Mormons." You'd be okay with that, right? And here in lies a great problem for you:

If you say, "Yes, I'd follow that law" then there wouldn't be any Mormons.

If you say, "No, I wouldn't follow that law" then you're picking and choosing which part of your (allegedly) holy text you want to follow.