Invitation to Challange the LDS (mormon) Religion

[Kakumei]

Quote by: rez Is this a personal attack? Albert Einstein also said that god does not play dice. His own beliefs could not allow him to connect his theory of general relativity and quantum physics together. If Albert Einstein were alive today, he would be under a different set of believes about reality. He did not end his career well.... I wonder, are you partically a Mormon because you lack an intermediate understanding of what Albert Eistein did and said? Sorry, but no. I won't let you get away with that. There are hundreds of other supernatural religions out there. All of which use magic to explain how things operate in reality. All of which have as much evidence to back up as the next supernatural religion. If you think LDS makes total, sense, wait till you learn about Hinduism... Because you have a deficency in your brain? Thats not a good enough reason. Sorry, but this is about Mormonism. You believe God lives on a planet near the star Kolob. I can see how you can believe that all human share chromosomes that can be paired with one another, but you still have a problem with Kolob.

Well, if there is a God, where would he live? In another plain of reality? Please, I have my limits to the supernatural.

[Aussie]

Quote by: Kakumei Well, if there is a God, where would he live? In another plain of reality? Please, I have my limits to the supernatural.

Well you've stated that he is in the physical world and have even stated a reference point (Kolob) which means he should, in the realm of time, be eventually found. What happens then? Wouldn't it also mean that he's a physical being subject to laws of physics, etc. It doesn't seem very god-like, or is he just exempt?

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Kakumei No they usually marry after the men get off there missions. There are not guidliness on the age of marage, just as long as its moral, and its withing the boundries of the law. We also believe that it is a sin to divorce a spouse in most events, with the acception of there being serious sin, such as Adultery and Murder and all that. No, they cannot have sex with the previous spouse, as they are no longer bound by marriage. When it coms to new revealations, at this point we dont get many. For now, it comes down to reignforcing the teachings already known, as we are all liable to forget and become involved in immoral activities and worldly things. "Be in the world, but not of the world" is how its quoted. We have to master what we already know before recieveing the new. ^_^

If they do not marry until after their men finish a two year mission (starting at age 19) then they are not busy with babies as you said, at least not their own children. So how come they do not go along with the boys spread the word among others. Most of the Mormon girls are more educated then the men in explaining things, they should be out there doing it also. Why do they have a rule not to train girls for those missions?

If truth is written on the heart you cannot forget, why is that not happening among Mormons?

The Mormon culture is your world, how can you not be of the Mormon world and still be in it? I cannot see how you have seperated your self from worldly religions?

To be "of the world" means that you live by what others tell you to do, rather then by revelations and personal insights. To still be of the world is to be directed by a prophet and/or peer group pressure (to stay in the fold). To not be "of the world" is to think for your self, to quesiton anything that claims authority. Surely you can see that parroting a quote does not always mean you understand the meaning of the quote.

Do I make sense?

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Kakumei Heh, look up what our Church did when it was kicked out of a country in Africa for a while, thats what will happen.

What? You indoctrinated, bribed and intimidated your way back in?

[Kakumei]

Quote by: Technosoul If they do not marry until after their men finish a two year mission (starting at age 19) then they are not busy with babies as you said, at least not their own children. So how come they do not go along with the boys spread the word among others. Most of the Mormon girls are more educated then the men in explaining things, they should be out there doing it also. Why do they have a rule not to train girls for those missions? If truth is written on the heart you cannot forget, why is that not happening among Mormons? The Mormon culture is your world, how can you not be of the Mormon world and still be in it? I cannot see how you have seperated your self from worldly religions? To be "of the world" means that you live by what others tell you to do, rather then by revelations and personal insights. To still be of the world is to be directed by a prophet and/or peer group pressure (to stay in the fold). To not be "of the world" is to think for your self, to quesiton anything that claims authority. Surely you can see that parroting a quote does not always mean you understand the meaning of the quote. Do I make sense?

You bring up many good points, however, when it comes down to it, a quote can have more than one meaning, both can be right. When I see the quote, "Be in the World" means that you must live in it, and to deal with things that are apart of the world. "But be not of the World" mean not to take part in the sins of the world, of course we all live in the world and we all sin, what im trying to say, is to strive to do your best in a world where people would like to drag you down and make you feel like crap, or to commit sins. I am not a very devout LDS member in some sences, I wear very unusual clothing, usually dark, from the rest of society, I have my anime costumes and I go to convetions, things like that, but when it comes to the basics, I do my best, because I dont care what religion you are, LDS, Methodist, Jehovahs Witness, Muslim, Buddist, Athiest, we all have our place and I respect everyone, even the Athiests, lol,
Believe it or not, I understand how they think and why and what they say. I would like to say im not 100% different, i just have a belief in a God, I believe in Evolution, and in many other things. I do like the Big Bang theory, but untill there is more information on it, Im leaning more to the Steady Stasis theory... Lol.

Women in our church just do different things, they live there whole life in service, its not just about making babies, for the most part, women are the ones who raise and nutrue them. Women have the choice to serve a mission, nobodies holding them back, and your right, women tend to be better cause they tend to have a softer spirit with them. When it comes down to men, they sortof need the mission, that way they can become more humble lol.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Kakumei See, this is easy to comment on, considering the Government, instead of owning up to the crap it does on occation, must falisfy a history on a man who did what he thought was right in the site of his God.

Dude, the government could care less about Joseph Smith. It has plenty of bigger things to worry about. No, the rewritten history is on the part of the early Mormons to turn their Scientology-like nonsense into something "believable". Furthermore, you're not actually doing what you came here to do and you're certainly not debating. Aimlessly blaming the government for facts raised by a non-government website is a terrible defense. If you think the facts are mistaken, then you need to present evidence. Not inane conspiracy theory.

[Zhavric]

Finally, you've still yet to even address the lion's share of the issues I raised from exmormon.org. Please begin in your next post or I will conclude that you're unwilling/unable to do so and you will concede the debate. I'm not spending 8 pages of text watching you flounder around and present evasions. Do what you said you came here to do or throw in the towel.

[Kakumei]

Quote by: Zhavric What? You indoctrinated, bribed and intimidated your way back in?

Uhh, no. I see you really dont know whats going on. You actually sound like you used to be a member and when anti on us. Lol, the church, or the members of the church there, who had not much to do with the Americans back here, love the doctrine so much that they did what it took to bring it back into there own country, and they did it by themselves. The book of Mormon has proved to be a very powerful thing among those that will read and listen, and put the promise to the test. ive seen it many of times.

[Morality Games]

Quote by: Kakumei Uhh, no. I see you really dont know whats going on. You actually sound like you used to be a member and when anti on us. Lol, the church, or the members of the church there, who had not much to do with the Americans back here, love the doctrine so much that they did what it took to bring it back into there own country, and they did it by themselves. The book of Mormon has proved to be a very powerful thing among those that will read and listen, and put the promise to the test. ive seen it many of times.

As does everyone of every other religion.

[Kakumei]

Quote by: Zhavric Finally, you've still yet to even address the lion's share of the issues I raised from exmormon.org. Please begin in your next post or I will conclude that you're unwilling/unable to do so and you will concede the debate. I'm not spending 8 pages of text watching you flounder around and present evasions. Do what you said you came here to do or throw in the towel.

Considering that I never came here to debate an athiest, although your welcome to, I should have put that it was aimed at other thiests. I apoligize for that, and also your right, that is a lions share of information, and I sir, am not lion. I told you before, thats too much information for me to process. I will throw in the towel, but i will do it with this,

I thought you were a funny guy and had alot of respect for you till now, most of what you said felt very hateful in this debate, when its usually not in other such debates. Sorry for waisting your time, and that I am unable to debate this topic against athiests.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Kakumei You bring up many good points, however, when it comes down to it, a quote can have more than one meaning, both can be right. When I see the quote, "Be in the World" means that you must live in it, and to deal with things that are apart of the world. "But be not of the World" mean not to take part in the sins of the world, of course we all live in the world and we all sin, what im trying to say, is to strive to do your best in a world where people would like to drag you down and make you feel like crap, or to commit sins. I am not a very devout LDS member in some sences, I wear very unusual clothing, usually dark, from the rest of society, I have my anime costumes and I go to convetions, things like that, but when it comes to the basics, I do my best, because I dont care what religion you are, LDS, Methodist, Jehovahs Witness, Muslim, Buddist, Athiest, we all have our place and I respect everyone, even the Athiests, lol, Believe it or not, I understand how they think and why and what they say. I would like to say im not 100% different, i just have a belief in a God, I believe in Evolution, and in many other things. I do like the Big Bang theory, but untill there is more information on it, Im leaning more to the Steady Stasis theory... Lol. Women in our church just do different things, they live there whole life in service, its not just about making babies, for the most part, women are the ones who raise and nutrue them. Women have the choice to serve a mission, nobodies holding them back, and your right, women tend to be better cause they tend to have a softer spirit with them. When it comes down to men, they sortof need the mission, that way they can become more humble lol.

If you use someone elses qoute (in this case it was something Jesus said) and then claim it can have more then one right interpretation, then that makes to non-effect the purpose of the saying which was quoted as a teaching tool. (to use for confirmation). Because if you have two different interpretations of a qoute that you wish to follow then you have two different Masters ( AKA - Teachers ). Which would be the same thing as having 600 Prophets running the Chruch to direct the people in 600 directions. Why? Because your interpretation would distract people from my interpretation, such that your meaning of the quote would save people form salvation, if my interpretation happened to be right, resulting in thousands of people remaining in bondage to a worldly religion. Which bondage is like keeping a baby forever in the womb attached to a "biblical cord" (note my spelling which I did on purpose). It is not liberation theology because that qoute did not offer a truth that can set one free from such bondage to cultural connections. It did not un-tie the donkey form it's old master so that the Lord ( A K A - revelation ) could have use of it.

The 2nd part of what you wrote I agree with. A birds eye overview of scripture would inform us that God became softer and more gentle in the New Testiment as compared to the Old Testiment. As God got in touch with his Goddess within.
A "mothering" which is interpreted as unconditional love overcame violent male domination. ( and the stoning of women ).

I took permission to elaborate on what you said ( and no doubt you might not agree with that elaboration or my overview of scripture). What you said came from your own personal insight and not from your church Prophet.

When I watched the news of that sub-cult of the Later Day Saints, who had their children abducted by the authorities, it was the women who came forth to speak to the cameras while the men kept out of site. Some of them spoke form their own hearts and that was very moving and it is a shame no one listened to them and they went ahead and stuck the children in foster homes.

And I like your non-judgemental attitude also, which indicates to me that you are on the right track, by whatever means you got on that track, it matters not.

Because you came up with that idea that women would make better mothers of culture then would men, and that men need to humble their self through such a missonary experience (they get a lot of doors slammed in their faces), then I would say that you are within the Mormon culture but not totally "of" it. And unknowingly we are in some agreement here. However do not let what I just said go to your head otherwise we will have to humble you with a "door to door" missionary trip.

[Kakumei]

Quote by: Morality Games As does everyone of every other religion.

Your right, and I have ready the books of many religion, and the book of Mormon is the one that hooked me in to stay.
Thoughts and feelings from it never fade from my mind.

[rez]

Quote by: Kakumei I thought you were a funny guy and had alot of respect for you till now, most of what you said felt very hateful in this debate, when its usually not in other such debates. Sorry for waisting your time, and that I am unable to debate this topic against athiests.

bwwahaha. Kakumei, I don't know how old you are but you need to get your ducks in a row. You don't debate atheists, you debate arguments. The arguments that Zharvaric posted were very simple logical questions.

Ya know what I mean? Like if you bought a banana and put it on the table, and then the banana was missing you would ask "Where did it go"? and then of course you would go and investigate and try to find it. You don't have a reason to think ghosts took it and you damn well don't think god took it to its planet...right?

[rez]

Quote by: Kakumei Your right, and I have ready the books of many religion, and the book of Mormon is the one that hooked me in to stay. Thoughts and feelings from it never fade from my mind.

I don't believe you.

[Kakumei]

Quote by: Technosoul If you use someone elses qoute (in this case it was something Jesus said) and then claim it can have more then one right interpretation, then that makes to non-effect the purpose of the saying which was quoted as a teaching tool. (to use for confirmation). Because if you have two different interpretations of a qoute that you wish to follow then you have two different Masters ( AKA - Teachers ). Which would be the same thing as having 600 Prophets running the Chruch to direct the people in 600 directions. Why? Because your interpretation would distract people from my interpretation, such that your meaning of the quote would save people form salvation, if my interpretation happened to be right, resulting in thousands of people remaining in bondage to a worldly religion. Which bondage is like keeping a baby forever in the womb attached to a "biblical cord" (note my spelling which I did on purpose). It is not liberation theology because that qoute did not offer a truth that can set one free from such bondage to cultural connections. It did not un-tie the donkey form it's old master so that the Lord ( A K A - revelation ) could have use of it.

Oh I see, so let me ask this, do you believe everything in the bible is in chronological order right?

[Kakumei]

Quote by: rez bwwahaha. Kakumei, I don't know how old you are but you need to get your ducks in a row. You don't debate atheists, you debate arguments. The arguments that Zharvaric posted were very simple logical questions. Ya know what I mean? Like if you bought a banana and put it on the table, and then the banana was missing you would ask "Where did it go"? and then of course you would go and investigate and try to find it. You don't have a reason to think ghosts took it and you damn well don't think god took it to its planet...right?

For one thing, NOBODY touches MY bananas, second of all, I dont care if the a space dragon took it, im gettin it back. Again, your one of the few who actually think that life only exists on one planet. Thats either conceded or prideful, I dont know which.

[Kakumei]

Quote by: rez I don't believe you.

No offence, but I dont care. I know what I have done, heard, seen and felt and its different from you.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Kakumei Oh I see, so let me ask this, do you believe everything in the bible is in chronological order right?

I have not studied the styles in which the Bible was written to be an authority on that. (nor do I think that original manuscrpts still exsist for the most part). From what I suspect the old testiment was written before the new tesitiment. And would be chronological or in order timewise from Abraham through the Book of Revelations, and that Mormon and other texts can be viewed as extended branches of that tree. I have learned that the texts prior to Abraham were written about 200 B.C. and were really the last chapters written, for the purpose of giving the Jewish culture some historical roots beyond the formation of their religion by Moses. So chronologically the Adam and Eve story should have been the last chapter if you went by the dates it was written.

However that just concerns what might be seen as the "historical" apsect of the Bible. In my opinon the truisms so recorded were true in the beginning of time and would remian so even if only written about in later times. For example: If a Later Day Saint had a revelation today which is true then that truth exsisted in the beginning and through out all of histroy. For example: Joseph Smith advised his people not to smoke, drink booze, and other such things long before science pointed out any potential health risks. In spite of the fact the Smith spoke with many of the Elders in the Native American culture and compared notes with them, he still comprehended the downside of an addiction. And I doubt if our government would ever need to take their "war on drugs" into a Mormon Culture because that cultural problem was already delt with many years ago, on faith and not later via social stuidies or scientific data. And I doubt if the early Mormons subsituted sex for drugs because the women do not look like Playmate bunnies, they look more like helpmates. If those men were really into multi-marrages for purposes of sex then the male leaders would promote the women to look real sexy like they do in Hollywood, which is not the case in fact.

And the modern LSD culture does not prevent it's members from reading and learning about the outside world, and so keeping everyone isolated for the purposes of brianwashing them is not something we can blame them of. The subculture works more as an "example" for the sake of the "larger culture" rather then as a methodology of bondage (for it's membership). As I see it the purpose is to set up a social culture that is organized to show everyone that it is possible to have a culture that is not prone to violence and other forms of self-degeneration. To teach by example more so then by just preaching idealistic concepts. And so the "intent" is not something I would object too.

Let me know if I still have missunderstood the reasoning behind LDS.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Zhavric If you can't prove it, then it's false. People who lived a couple hundred years ago in the middle of nowhere America don't magically learn Egyptian.

Smith did not spend all his time in Utah. He spent a lot of time in the eastern part of what is now the USA.

While in the east he spent a lot of time with the Native Americans who use the same style of writing as they used in Eqypt. They use drawings of things and symbols of things rather then "words" like we do in our English culture. The Indians might draw a deer ro buffalo and that image would have a special meaning to them for reasons other then just being a documentation of what an animal looks like. Just like we see in Egyptian writings on those pyramids. So he did in fact educate his self in that manner of communication and the newer versions used in the Native American culture. And could have been given a scroll presented to him by some elder in the Native American tribe. Smith did not know about the simular pyramids in centrial or South America that show some influence of "sameness" with the Egyptian culture. But he knew of that connecton none the less, long before most of the rest of the Western World, other then the Spanish explorers who built the missions along the coast of California. The pyramid builders in America might be directly connected to the pyramid builders in Eqypt because they shared the same knowledge and construction concepts. So it not "out of context" that Smith came across such writings as he claimed. The flood story discovered in the digs in Mexico are simular to the flood stories written about in the story of Noah.

Now about "golden tablets" I do not know much about that. But we speak of the Golden Rule. Not because it is wrtten in gold but because it is of utter most value. As gold is thought of as the most valued material next to silver. So it could have been a "highly valued tablet" or scroll in his opinon and not a tablet made out of actural gold. Although the Native cultures did make a lot of things out of gold and such objects might of made their way into North America by someone on a explorative journey, and that golden object might have ended up in the hands of Joseph Smith. If it was gold then of couse he would keep it in a very safe place to prevent some greedy cowboy form stealing it. Which is a logical thing to do.

I am not a Mormon but that is how I would have answered the question if I was a Mormon.

[rez]

Quote by: Kakumei your one of the few who actually think that life only exists on one planet. Thats either conceded or prideful, I dont know which.

I think you are one of those newer members that don't know proper etiquette and how to debate.