Religion and techniques of brainwashing

[Aussie]

Hello all, i've been reading the site for a while now and thought I'd have some input.

This is a question relating to Christianity as an organistion/religion, not an attack on Christians. Just for background, my parents are Christian though I haven't been baptised so therefor I have no religion. Having a religious education (yrs 7-12) though I was able to view the religious happenings from an 'outsiders' perspective.

In school we were taught about pyschology and within this course we were breifly taught about mind manipulation through brainwashing. One area that struck me was in relation to repetative chanting so I asked "Isn't that what happens in Church?" which lead to my question being dismissed hurridly.

Reading this site brought up that old question in my mind, so I had a quick look on the net regarding brainwashing techniques and found a few commonly accepted practices, (the ones I've hightlighted being those I think applicable to Christianity, or in fact, many religions)

My question is have you not noticed how the practices of Christianity (as per the religious structure) harness the techniques of brainwashing? Seeing people chant in time with no emotion in church, having any questions about biblical contradictions dismissed, etc and now seeing the corrolation between these techniques and practices in church lead me away from the path of Christianity (that and the whole I'm going to hell bit along with the gays and anyone else who doesn't accept Jesus).
Can you read through these techniques below and honestly claim that these methods aren't being utilised? Please, again this is not a go, its just the same conclusion I came to through my own experiences.

Techniques:

1) HYPNOSIS - Inducing a high state of suggestibility, often thinly disguised as relaxation or meditation.

2) PEER GROUP PRESSURE - Suppressing doubt and resistance to new ideas by exploiting the need to belong.

3) "LOVE BOMBING" - Creating a sense of family through physical touch, thought & feeling sharing and emotional bonding.

4) REJECTION OF OLD VALUES - Accelerating acceptance of new lifestyle by constantly denouncing former beliefs and values.

5) CONFUSING DOCTRINE - Encouraging blind acceptance and rejection of logic through complex lectures on an incomprehensible doctrine.

6) METACOMMUNICATION - Implanting subliminal messages by stressing certain key words or phrases in long, confusing lectures.

7) REMOVAL OF PRIVACY - Achieving loss of ability to evaluate logically by preventing private contemplation.

8) DISINHIBITION - Encouraging child-like obedience by orchestrating child-like behaviour

9) UNCOMPROMISING RULES - Inducing regression and disorientation by soliciting agreement to seemingly simple rules which regulate mealtimes, bathroom breaks and use of medications.

10) VERBAL ABUSE - Desensitizing through bombardment with foul and abusive language. (Physical abuse, such as torture, is the more extreme form of this.)

11) SLEEP DEPRIVATION AND FATIGUE - Creating disorientation and vulnerability by prolonging mental an physical activity and withholding adequate rest and sleep.

12) DRESS CODES - Removing individuality by demanding conformity to the group dress code.

13) CHANTING OR SINGING - Eliminating non-cult ideas through group repetition of mind-narrowing chants or phrases.

14) CONFESSION - Encouraging the destruction of individual ego through confession of personal weaknesses and innermost feelings of doubt.

15) FINANCIAL COMMITMENT - Achieving increased dependence on the group by 'burning bridges' to the past, through the donation of assets.

16) FINGER POINTING - Creating a false sense of righteousness by pointing to the shortcomings of the outside world.

17) ISOLATION - Inducing loss of reality by physical separation from family, friends, society and rational references.

18) CONTROLLED APPROVAL - Maintaining vulnerability and confusion by alternately rewarding and punishing similar actions.

19) CHANGE OF DIET - Creating disorientation and increased susceptibility to emotional arousal by depriving the nervous system of necessary nutrients through the use of special diets and/or fasting. Also applying drugs for these purposes fall in this category.

20) GAMES - Inducing dependence on the group by introducing games with obscure rules.

21) NO QUESTIONS - Accomplishing automatic acceptance of beliefs by discouraging questions.

22) GUILT - Reinforcing the need for 'salvation' by exaggerating the sins of the former lifestyles.

23) FEAR - Maintaining loyalty and obedience to the group by threatening soul, life or limb for the slightest 'negative' thought, word or deed.

[Tycoon]

Aussie, I would have to say this is the best thought out post I have seen in a while. I'd like to add that Christianity is careful to involve children, who are more impressionable and more easily accept it simply by family tradition.

[HelioPrime]

If your going to say religion is the result of brainwashing thats untrue.

Faith requires instruction, since it isn't something instinctive.

You could also place the same label on strict secular atheist, since any view point needs to be taught.

Taking atheist as an example:

Guilt: theists are led to believe they are the cause of grief and through the path of secularism a better world is obtainable.

Isolation: What it must be like to be a practicing Muslim moving into a secular northern European country. Feelings of isolation when surrounded by people who have a vast difference in belief.

Peer Pressure: The gay christian surrounded by hostile peers, the Muslim again in Norway, etc... massive pressure in many urban and new age social circles to take religion only as a joke.

Emotional Attacks: How can God send Babies to hell!!!! And other such ideals. Attacking faith using extreme examples that don't use logic but only raw emotion to attempt and push a point.

Absolute Truths: The demand that certain absolute truths be accepted by all. It's hard to talk with others when they demand you stay on a certain page and accept even ideals you don't agree with. It's easy to breed atheists when you enforce the acceptance of only select, secular friendly concepts. It's the same as saying people are free to believe what they want in private but they all must accept God cannot logically exist.

Equality Appeal: The Big One: Appeals that religion could only be valid if it equally treated everyone the same. Everyone goes to heaven even unbelievers in which case everyone might as well be an atheist.

Numbers Rationalization: Breaking everything down in % or numbers, the supported belief the chance of God is so low its not worth believing in so any rational person should not believe.

Superiority: The seemingly innocent ideal that atheism is superior, that once a person because an atheist they are also a well adjusted rational human being a level above any person of faith.

[Aussie]

Quote by: Tycoon Aussie, I would have to say this is the best thought out post I have seen in a while. I'd like to add that Christianity is careful to involve children, who are more impressionable and more easily accept it simply by family tradition.

Well that was going to be my "would Christianity retain numbers if infant baptism wasn't standard practice" thread, but I should have included it in this one! Again this relates to my experience as I was given the choice and time to make that choice, one I have since declined.

[Tycoon]

Faith requires instruction, since it isn't something instinctive.

Brainwashing is a method of instruction, not a side effect.

Atheists are led to believe they are the cause of grief and through the path of secularism a better world is obtainable.

They are not led to believe they are the cause of grief simply because they don't have the black and white forces of good and evil that Christianity uses to explain it.

What it must be like to be a practicing Muslim moving into a secular northern European country. Feelings of isolation when surrounded by people who have a vast difference in belief.

Nobody is telling them to become atheist. Nobody is denying their right to have faith. If anything this only occurs because they're losing the sense of community that religion uses to manipulate.

How can God send Babies to hell!!!! And other such ideals. Attacking faith using extreme examples that don't use logic but only raw emotion to attempt and push a point.

I'm confused how that is an illogical question. Maybe babies aren't the best example, but how about somebody mentally retarted? They don't get a chance to believe in God.

The demand that certain absolute truths be accepted by all. It's hard to talk with others when they demand you stay on a certain page and accept even ideals you don't agree with. It's easy to breed atheists when you enforce the acceptance of only select, secular friendly concepts. It's the same as saying people are free to believe what they want in private but they all must accept God cannot logically exist.

If the person doesn't accept that God existing is illogical then they aren't an atheist. That's not manipulation, that's the underlying belief of atheism.

Appeals that religion could only be valid if it equally treated everyone the same. Everyone goes to heaven even unbelievers in which case everyone might as well be an atheist.

Nobody deserves eternal suffering, even for any crime committed here on Earth. To think somebody should be condemned to eternal suffering simply because they don't believe in God is ridiculous.

[Tycoon]

Well that was going to be my "would Christianity retain numbers if infant baptism wasn't standard practice" thread, but I should have included it in this one! Again this relates to my experience as I was given the choice and time to make that choice, one I have since declined.

I was Christian for a long time by family tradition. My beliefs quickly changed when I acknowledged my sexuality.

[Aussie]

Quote by: HelioPrime If your going to say religion is the result of brainwashing thats untrue. Faith requires instruction, since it isn't something instinctive. You could also place the same label on strict secular atheist, since any view point needs to be taught. Taking atheist as an example: Guilt: theists are led to believe they are the cause of grief and through the path of secularism a better world is obtainable. Isolation: What it must be like to be a practicing Muslim moving into a secular northern European country. Feelings of isolation when surrounded by people who have a vast difference in belief. Peer Pressure: The gay christian surrounded by hostile peers, the Muslim again in Norway, etc... massive pressure in many urban and new age social circles to take religion only as a joke. Emotional Attacks: How can God send Babies to hell!!!! And other such ideals. Attacking faith using extreme examples that don't use logic but only raw emotion to attempt and push a point. Absolute Truths: The demand that certain absolute truths be accepted by all. It's hard to talk with others when they demand you stay on a certain page and accept even ideals you don't agree with. It's easy to breed atheists when you enforce the acceptance of only select, secular friendly concepts. It's the same as saying people are free to believe what they want in private but they all must accept God cannot logically exist. Equality Appeal: The Big One: Appeals that religion could only be valid if it equally treated everyone the same. Everyone goes to heaven even unbelievers in which case everyone might as well be an atheist. Numbers Rationalization: Breaking everything down in % or numbers, the supported belief the chance of God is so low its not worth believing in so any rational person should not believe. Superiority: The seemingly innocent ideal that atheism is superior, that once a person because an atheist they are also a well adjusted rational human being a level above any person of faith.

Hi Helio, I find it interesting you make these points as these are very things religion foster (and I think as I'm writing this, Tycoon may be addressing the very same thing.)

And when did faith need religion or instruction? Cant one just have faith and not belong to a certain 'club'?

[Aussie]

Quote by: Tycoon I was Christian for a long time by family tradition. My beliefs quickly changed when I acknowledged my sexuality.

Ah, I see you're going to hell! Another part of Christianity I find hard to believe and often indoctrinated at an early age, eg.

[IMG][/IMG]

[Jack]

Those who don't understand what atheism is always make a muddle of it when they try to challenge it.

How can atheism be taught, how can it be indoctrinated? There are no atheistic churches (well, a few on the internet, but they're spoofs), no atheistic Sunday schools, atheism isn't mentioned in the Pledge of Allegiance or taught by the Boy Scouts. Yes there are books promoting an atheistic view, there are websites doing the same (I own one), but you have to desire the information to seek it out. To shed religion and accept atheism, you have to think for yourself and reach that conclusion on your own.

You can't begin to compare religious thought and atheism. One is a strict code of allegiance that requires loyalty and obedience and discourages skepticism and questioning. The other is simply the rejection of that mindset. It's the ultimate freeing of the mind.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Aussie Hello all, i've been reading the site for a while now and thought I'd have some input. This is a question relating to Christianity as an organistion/religion, not an attack on Christians. Just for background, my parents are Christian though I haven't been baptised so therefor I have no religion. Having a religious education (yrs 7-12) though I was able to view the religious happenings from an 'outsiders' perspective. In school we were taught about pyschology and within this course we were breifly taught about mind manipulation through brainwashing. One area that struck me was in relation to repetative chanting so I asked "Isn't that what happens in Church?" which lead to my question being dismissed hurridly. Reading this site brought up that old question in my mind, so I had a quick look on the net regarding brainwashing techniques and found a few commonly accepted practices, (the ones I've hightlighted being those I think applicable to Christianity, or in fact, many religions) My question is have you not noticed how the practices of Christianity (as per the religious structure) harness the techniques of brainwashing? Seeing people chant in time with no emotion in church, having any questions about biblical contradictions dismissed, etc and now seeing the corrolation between these techniques and practices in church lead me away from the path of Christianity (that and the whole I'm going to hell bit along with the gays and anyone else who doesn't accept Jesus). Can you read through these techniques below and honestly claim that these methods aren't being utilised? Please, again this is not a go, its just the same conclusion I came to through my own experiences. Techniques: 1) HYPNOSIS - Inducing a high state of suggestibility, often thinly disguised as relaxation or meditation. 2) PEER GROUP PRESSURE - Suppressing doubt and resistance to new ideas by exploiting the need to belong. 3) "LOVE BOMBING" - Creating a sense of family through physical touch, thought & feeling sharing and emotional bonding. 4) REJECTION OF OLD VALUES - Accelerating acceptance of new lifestyle by constantly denouncing former beliefs and values. 5) CONFUSING DOCTRINE - Encouraging blind acceptance and rejection of logic through complex lectures on an incomprehensible doctrine. 6) METACOMMUNICATION - Implanting subliminal messages by stressing certain key words or phrases in long, confusing lectures. 7) REMOVAL OF PRIVACY - Achieving loss of ability to evaluate logically by preventing private contemplation. 8) DISINHIBITION - Encouraging child-like obedience by orchestrating child-like behaviour 9) UNCOMPROMISING RULES - Inducing regression and disorientation by soliciting agreement to seemingly simple rules which regulate mealtimes, bathroom breaks and use of medications. 10) VERBAL ABUSE - Desensitizing through bombardment with foul and abusive language. (Physical abuse, such as torture, is the more extreme form of this.) 11) SLEEP DEPRIVATION AND FATIGUE - Creating disorientation and vulnerability by prolonging mental an physical activity and withholding adequate rest and sleep. 12) DRESS CODES - Removing individuality by demanding conformity to the group dress code. 13) CHANTING OR SINGING - Eliminating non-cult ideas through group repetition of mind-narrowing chants or phrases. 14) CONFESSION - Encouraging the destruction of individual ego through confession of personal weaknesses and innermost feelings of doubt. 15) FINANCIAL COMMITMENT - Achieving increased dependence on the group by 'burning bridges' to the past, through the donation of assets. 16) FINGER POINTING - Creating a false sense of righteousness by pointing to the shortcomings of the outside world. 17) ISOLATION - Inducing loss of reality by physical separation from family, friends, society and rational references. 18) CONTROLLED APPROVAL - Maintaining vulnerability and confusion by alternately rewarding and punishing similar actions. 19) CHANGE OF DIET - Creating disorientation and increased susceptibility to emotional arousal by depriving the nervous system of necessary nutrients through the use of special diets and/or fasting. Also applying drugs for these purposes fall in this category. 20) GAMES - Inducing dependence on the group by introducing games with obscure rules. 21) NO QUESTIONS - Accomplishing automatic acceptance of beliefs by discouraging questions. 22) GUILT - Reinforcing the need for 'salvation' by exaggerating the sins of the former lifestyles. 23) FEAR - Maintaining loyalty and obedience to the group by threatening soul, life or limb for the slightest 'negative' thought, word or deed.

Those are some of the methods used to bond people to a cult religion, and each religion might employ some of those methods you mentioned.

But very few of the majority of organized religions use all those methods to control the flock.

[Aussie]

Quote by: Technosoul Those are some of the methods used to bond people to a cult religion, and each religion might employ some of those methods you mentioned. But very few of the majority of organized religions use all those methods to control the flock.

Really? I'll share the ones I've experience through Christianity


2) PEER GROUP PRESSURE - Suppressing doubt and resistance to new ideas by exploiting the need to belong. - the

3) "LOVE BOMBING" - Creating a sense of family through physical touch, thought & feeling sharing and emotional bonding. father, son, holy spirit

5) CONFUSING DOCTRINE - Encouraging blind acceptance and rejection of logic through complex lectures on an incomprehensible doctrine. - the Bible, full of contradictions people blindly ignore (saw a fellow blogger show through mathematical equations relating to water quantity, dissipation, etc how Noahs flood could not have happened, still refused cause the book said so)

6) METACOMMUNICATION - Implanting subliminal messages by stressing certain key words or phrases in long, confusing lectures. - many many examples of these sermons, rev falliwell, nile, etc

9) UNCOMPROMISING RULES - Inducing regression and disorientation by soliciting agreement to seemingly simple rules which regulate mealtimes, bathroom breaks and use of medications. - Many examples again

12) DRESS CODES - Removing individuality by demanding conformity to the group dress code. - clergy, nuns, preists, etc

13) CHANTING OR SINGING - Eliminating non-cult ideas through group repetition of mind-narrowing chants or phrases. Our father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name (that one got boring real quick, it was the real monotonous tone that got me with this one)

14) CONFESSION - Encouraging the destruction of individual ego through confession of personal weaknesses and innermost feelings of doubt. - Confession time, tell us your darkest sins

15) FINANCIAL COMMITMENT - Achieving increased dependence on the group by 'burning bridges' to the past, through the donation of assets. - visit Soloman Islands sometimes and see the Church get rich as the locals get poorer

16) FINGER POINTING - Creating a false sense of righteousness by pointing to the shortcomings of the outside world. - daily

18) CONTROLLED APPROVAL - Maintaining vulnerability and confusion by alternately rewarding and punishing similar actions. - who actually gets into heaven or hell?? It would seem by religious default that no one is going anyway!


21) NO QUESTIONS - Accomplishing automatic acceptance of beliefs by discouraging questions. - this happened anytime I questioned the bible in school, I just wanted to understand?

22) GUILT - Reinforcing the need for 'salvation' by exaggerating the sins of the former lifestyles. - the cornerstone of many religions

23) FEAR - Maintaining loyalty and obedience to the group by threatening soul, life or limb for the slightest 'negative' thought, word or deed. - well there's not much that wouldn't damn us to hell given the rule book.

Again, this isn't anything I've made up, its observations which lead me to ask why??

Does it not bother Christians the corrolations between their religious practices and commonly accepted techniques of brainwashing?

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Aussie Hello all, i've been reading the site for a while now and thought I'd have some input. This is a question relating to Christianity as an organistion/religion, not an attack on Christians. Just for background, my parents are Christian though I haven't been baptised so therefor I have no religion. Having a religious education (yrs 7-12) though I was able to view the religious happenings from an 'outsiders' perspective. In school we were taught about pyschology and within this course we were breifly taught about mind manipulation through brainwashing. One area that struck me was in relation to repetative chanting so I asked "Isn't that what happens in Church?" which lead to my question being dismissed hurridly. Reading this site brought up that old question in my mind, so I had a quick look on the net regarding brainwashing techniques and found a few commonly accepted practices, (the ones I've hightlighted being those I think applicable to Christianity, or in fact, many religions) My question is have you not noticed how the practices of Christianity (as per the religious structure) harness the techniques of brainwashing? Seeing people chant in time with no emotion in church, having any questions about biblical contradictions dismissed, etc and now seeing the corrolation between these techniques and practices in church lead me away from the path of Christianity (that and the whole I'm going to hell bit along with the gays and anyone else who doesn't accept Jesus). Can you read through these techniques below and honestly claim that these methods aren't being utilised? Please, again this is not a go, its just the same conclusion I came to through my own experiences. Techniques: 1) HYPNOSIS - Inducing a high state of suggestibility, often thinly disguised as relaxation or meditation. 2) PEER GROUP PRESSURE - Suppressing doubt and resistance to new ideas by exploiting the need to belong. 3) "LOVE BOMBING" - Creating a sense of family through physical touch, thought & feeling sharing and emotional bonding. 4) REJECTION OF OLD VALUES - Accelerating acceptance of new lifestyle by constantly denouncing former beliefs and values. 5) CONFUSING DOCTRINE - Encouraging blind acceptance and rejection of logic through complex lectures on an incomprehensible doctrine. 6) METACOMMUNICATION - Implanting subliminal messages by stressing certain key words or phrases in long, confusing lectures. 7) REMOVAL OF PRIVACY - Achieving loss of ability to evaluate logically by preventing private contemplation. 8) DISINHIBITION - Encouraging child-like obedience by orchestrating child-like behaviour 9) UNCOMPROMISING RULES - Inducing regression and disorientation by soliciting agreement to seemingly simple rules which regulate mealtimes, bathroom breaks and use of medications. 10) VERBAL ABUSE - Desensitizing through bombardment with foul and abusive language. (Physical abuse, such as torture, is the more extreme form of this.) 11) SLEEP DEPRIVATION AND FATIGUE - Creating disorientation and vulnerability by prolonging mental an physical activity and withholding adequate rest and sleep. 12) DRESS CODES - Removing individuality by demanding conformity to the group dress code. 13) CHANTING OR SINGING - Eliminating non-cult ideas through group repetition of mind-narrowing chants or phrases. 14) CONFESSION - Encouraging the destruction of individual ego through confession of personal weaknesses and innermost feelings of doubt. 15) FINANCIAL COMMITMENT - Achieving increased dependence on the group by 'burning bridges' to the past, through the donation of assets. 16) FINGER POINTING - Creating a false sense of righteousness by pointing to the shortcomings of the outside world. 17) ISOLATION - Inducing loss of reality by physical separation from family, friends, society and rational references. 18) CONTROLLED APPROVAL - Maintaining vulnerability and confusion by alternately rewarding and punishing similar actions. 19) CHANGE OF DIET - Creating disorientation and increased susceptibility to emotional arousal by depriving the nervous system of necessary nutrients through the use of special diets and/or fasting. Also applying drugs for these purposes fall in this category. 20) GAMES - Inducing dependence on the group by introducing games with obscure rules. 21) NO QUESTIONS - Accomplishing automatic acceptance of beliefs by discouraging questions. 22) GUILT - Reinforcing the need for 'salvation' by exaggerating the sins of the former lifestyles. 23) FEAR - Maintaining loyalty and obedience to the group by threatening soul, life or limb for the slightest 'negative' thought, word or deed.

You left out early childhood indoctrination. Most of those techniques are unnecessary when you "get 'em while they're young". The ones you list are mostly for people in non-mainstream groups or people who haven't had that childhood indoctrination. Also, guilt needs to be much closer to number one if not THE number one technique. People will do anything to avoid guilt up to and including ending their own lives.

EDIT: I'd also change "No Questions" to "Specific Questions". Christianity actively encourages its members to ask the questions that will lead back to Christian doctrine. This helps give people like Helio the illusion that they've made some sort of informed choice in being Christian. However, this is not the case, as Christianity will actively scoff and and heap scorn on individuals who ask actual questions.

For example...

Acceptable questions:
"Why did Jesus sacrifice himself?"
"Why did the disciples die for what they believed in?"
"Are there any extra-biblical references to Jesus?"

Unacceptable questions:
"Why doesn't anyone writing at the time of Jesus' life mention Jesus?"
"How do we know the disciples existed?"
"What did Tacitus and Josephus use for sources for their alleged mention of Jesus?"

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Aussie Really? I'll share the ones I've experience through Christianity 2) PEER GROUP PRESSURE - Suppressing doubt and resistance to new ideas by exploiting the need to belong. - the 3) "LOVE BOMBING" - Creating a sense of family through physical touch, thought & feeling sharing and emotional bonding. father, son, holy spirit 5) CONFUSING DOCTRINE - Encouraging blind acceptance and rejection of logic through complex lectures on an incomprehensible doctrine. - the Bible, full of contradictions people blindly ignore (saw a fellow blogger show through mathematical equations relating to water quantity, dissipation, etc how Noahs flood could not have happened, still refused cause the book said so) 6) METACOMMUNICATION - Implanting subliminal messages by stressing certain key words or phrases in long, confusing lectures. - many many examples of these sermons, rev falliwell, nile, etc 9) UNCOMPROMISING RULES - Inducing regression and disorientation by soliciting agreement to seemingly simple rules which regulate mealtimes, bathroom breaks and use of medications. - Many examples again 12) DRESS CODES - Removing individuality by demanding conformity to the group dress code. - clergy, nuns, preists, etc 13) CHANTING OR SINGING - Eliminating non-cult ideas through group repetition of mind-narrowing chants or phrases. Our father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name (that one got boring real quick, it was the real monotonous tone that got me with this one) 14) CONFESSION - Encouraging the destruction of individual ego through confession of personal weaknesses and innermost feelings of doubt. - Confession time, tell us your darkest sins 15) FINANCIAL COMMITMENT - Achieving increased dependence on the group by 'burning bridges' to the past, through the donation of assets. - visit Soloman Islands sometimes and see the Church get rich as the locals get poorer 16) FINGER POINTING - Creating a false sense of righteousness by pointing to the shortcomings of the outside world. - daily 18) CONTROLLED APPROVAL - Maintaining vulnerability and confusion by alternately rewarding and punishing similar actions. - who actually gets into heaven or hell?? It would seem by religious default that no one is going anyway! 21) NO QUESTIONS - Accomplishing automatic acceptance of beliefs by discouraging questions. - this happened anytime I questioned the bible in school, I just wanted to understand? 22) GUILT - Reinforcing the need for 'salvation' by exaggerating the sins of the former lifestyles. - the cornerstone of many religions 23) FEAR - Maintaining loyalty and obedience to the group by threatening soul, life or limb for the slightest 'negative' thought, word or deed. - well there's not much that wouldn't damn us to hell given the rule book. Again, this isn't anything I've made up, its observations which lead me to ask why?? Does it not bother Christians the corrolations between their religious practices and commonly accepted techniques of brainwashing?

Most of the above are features of any organized group.

I've been to several retreats and worked for the confirmation program at St. James here in CT. The programs divided the students into little workgroups, with two guides to each group, by the end of the weekly program each group had gone through a range of topics and learning.

At the end of the program the question was asked do you really want to be confirmed and take your place as a catholic.

This is just how we brought up large groups of kids. Is it brainwashing? No, but I guess if your a egocentric atheist you'd throw group brainwashing, peer pressure, love bombing, and other words out and decry this system.

Religion is instructed and by the fact alone it seems its declared brainwashing. I guess public schools, AA, and every other support group is also brainwashing then as well. Its a world of brainwashing where nobody learns independently and uses their own judegement and sounds rational logic to become peaceful atheists. Oh how the world fails to understand

[Zhavric]

Helio, on the off chance you're tired of having me tear your arguments in half over my knee and actually want to debate me...

Quote by: HelioPrime Most of the above are features of any organized group.

Cool. Name 3. Be sure to explain how, specifically, they use the techniques above.

I've been to several retreats and worked for the confirmation program at St. James here in CT. The programs divided the students into little workgroups, with two guides to each group, by the end of the weekly program each group had gone through a range of topics and learning.

And no doubt been exposed to several of the techniques listed. Your point?

At the end of the program the question was asked do you really want to be confirmed and take your place as a catholic.

What a ridiculous question to ask a teen? Why don't they ask it honestly: "Please say yes to this thing we want you to do or we'll be really upset with you and your family will be really mad at you. The only way to avoid guilt is to say yes. So say yes. Or else."

This is just how we brought up large groups of kids. Is it brainwashing?

Yup. The sad thing is that you've lost the ability to recognize it for what it is. That's the beauty of it. From the inside looking out, you're just sharing honest information and giving someone a choice. For the rest of us who are intellectually honest, we see that the choice part is really an illusion... that kids going to confirmation camp (nice ring to that...) are being VERY subtely, yet very sternly preasured to make a yes decision.

Religion is instructed and by the fact alone it seems its declared brainwashing.

You're being disingenuous because you're missing the part where kids as young as 3 or 4 are being told ridiculous claims that they're too young to recognize at ridiculous. You can't point to something in their teens as a "free choice" when the damage was done in their formative years. Even if you take me off ignore, I predict you won't be able to adequately address this issue. You never really talk about the things that kill your argument.

I guess public schools, AA, and every other support group is also brainwashing then as well.

Nope. You're wrong. You're just pulling a Fonceai and trying to change the definition of brainwashing to win your argument. I'm not going to stand for nonsense like that and neither should anyone else.

Will someone kindly quote my entire post for the benefit of Helio? He really needs to read this.

Thanks.

[Aussie]

Quote by: HelioPrime Religion is instructed and by the fact alone it seems its declared brainwashing. I guess public schools, AA, and every other support group is also brainwashing then as well. Its a world of brainwashing where nobody learns independently and uses their own judegement and sounds rational logic to become peaceful atheists. Oh how the world fails to understand

Well like I said, I started in a public school then went to a private Catholic school. The only time I remember chanting in public school was 1x1=1, 2x2=4, etc. Then when I got into high school, monotone chanting in droves! These kids knew all the main psalms, etc. I also came across first communion aswell, and all these kids telling me about the bs they had to make up as a sin! "Ahhh, i hit my brother and it made him feel bad". I said, but that happens all the time with any family?? yeah but it's still a sin and sins make you go to hell. What the fook, you're going to hell cause you hit your brother??? They're teaching this sh!t to kids??? Now of course as an adult we know this isn't true, but to tell this to a child I just find abominable. I spose there's a good fear example, instill the fear early. Why? He's a loving god???

I note Helio is the only Christian so far to comment? Is this close to the bone? Again I ask as this was my observations surrounded by this environment.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Aussie Really? I'll share the ones I've experience through Christianity 2) PEER GROUP PRESSURE - Suppressing doubt and resistance to new ideas by exploiting the need to belong. - the 3) "LOVE BOMBING" - Creating a sense of family through physical touch, thought & feeling sharing and emotional bonding. father, son, holy spirit 5) CONFUSING DOCTRINE - Encouraging blind acceptance and rejection of logic through complex lectures on an incomprehensible doctrine. - the Bible, full of contradictions people blindly ignore (saw a fellow blogger show through mathematical equations relating to water quantity, dissipation, etc how Noahs flood could not have happened, still refused cause the book said so) 6) METACOMMUNICATION - Implanting subliminal messages by stressing certain key words or phrases in long, confusing lectures. - many many examples of these sermons, rev falliwell, nile, etc 9) UNCOMPROMISING RULES - Inducing regression and disorientation by soliciting agreement to seemingly simple rules which regulate mealtimes, bathroom breaks and use of medications. - Many examples again 12) DRESS CODES - Removing individuality by demanding conformity to the group dress code. - clergy, nuns, preists, etc 13) CHANTING OR SINGING - Eliminating non-cult ideas through group repetition of mind-narrowing chants or phrases. Our father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name (that one got boring real quick, it was the real monotonous tone that got me with this one) 14) CONFESSION - Encouraging the destruction of individual ego through confession of personal weaknesses and innermost feelings of doubt. - Confession time, tell us your darkest sins 15) FINANCIAL COMMITMENT - Achieving increased dependence on the group by 'burning bridges' to the past, through the donation of assets. - visit Soloman Islands sometimes and see the Church get rich as the locals get poorer 16) FINGER POINTING - Creating a false sense of righteousness by pointing to the shortcomings of the outside world. - daily 18) CONTROLLED APPROVAL - Maintaining vulnerability and confusion by alternately rewarding and punishing similar actions. - who actually gets into heaven or hell?? It would seem by religious default that no one is going anyway! 21) NO QUESTIONS - Accomplishing automatic acceptance of beliefs by discouraging questions. - this happened anytime I questioned the bible in school, I just wanted to understand? 22) GUILT - Reinforcing the need for 'salvation' by exaggerating the sins of the former lifestyles. - the cornerstone of many religions 23) FEAR - Maintaining loyalty and obedience to the group by threatening soul, life or limb for the slightest 'negative' thought, word or deed. - well there's not much that wouldn't damn us to hell given the rule book. Again, this isn't anything I've made up, its observations which lead me to ask why?? Does it not bother Christians the corrolations between their religious practices and commonly accepted techniques of brainwashing?

It looks like you are talking about just one denomination within a much larger spectrum of Christian based faiths.

Most churches do not encourage dress codes, some of them you can come as is, although putting on your Sunday best is a common tridition with the mainstream Bible belt here in the USA.

I never attended a Christian church that attempted to regulate mealtimes, bathroom breaks, and such basic things like that. I suppose some religious schools might do that however, as do secular schools.

Many churchs encourage only a small donation when they pass the collection plate during a Sunday sermon. But most would offer any service free of charge.

But a few major religions that are more cult like would use those methods and no doubt that was the case with the one you experienced.

The rest of the things you mentioned are pretty much common place in most of the religions I have observed. In addition to mood music some churches also install lighting effects to create moods and to sway people to do the will of the sermon.

So I agree and think that people should be aware of those methods and should walk out if they see that kind of activity, and they should absolutly protect their underage children from such exposure. I am basically apposed to religious and governmental brainwashing methodologies and do not even like TV product sales trying to use that kind of promotion.

But it works because we are pack animals and want to belong to that group idenity even if we end up sacrificing our personal indentity. So it is somewhat natural as social animals to seek something to belong too in the way of a group or organization.

I have always been a kind of hermit who is aware of such things, and as a teen I stopped attending church for the very reasons you mentioned.

[Tycoon]

Most of the above are features of any organized group.

Like Zhavric says, you haven't named any.

I've been to several retreats and worked for the confirmation program at St. James here in CT. The programs divided the students into little workgroups, with two guides to each group, by the end of the weekly program each group had gone through a range of topics and learning.

Exactly. You're just giving us an example of how people are indoctrinated at an early age into believing Christianity.

At the end of the program the question was asked do you really want to be confirmed and take your place as a catholic.

The people being confirmed were no doubt part of Catholic families. Of course they would want to be Catholic, it's part of their family tradition. Besides, people only get confirmed if they've already been going to church for a while. No doubt they've already been exposed to a good amount of brainwashing in church.

This is just how we brought up large groups of kids. Is it brainwashing? No, but I guess if your a egocentric atheist you'd throw group brainwashing, peer pressure, love bombing, and other words out and decry this system.

Yes, we say it's brainwashing. You can't prove it wrong just by acting like we have an agenda. Many of the things Aussie described take place in churches.

Religion is instructed and by the fact alone it seems its declared brainwashing. I gu