Religion and techniques of brainwashing

[rez]

Quote by: HelioPrime I've been to several retreats and worked for the confirmation program at St. James here in CT. The programs divided the students into little workgroups, with two guides to each group, by the end of the weekly program each group had gone through a range of topics and learning.

What were the topics and what the hell did you learn? Why was there
a workgroup? What when on in this workgroup?

This is just how we brought up large groups of kids. Is it brainwashing?

large groups of kids? Why is that needed?



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[HelioPrime]

Quote by: rez What were the topics and what the hell did you learn? Why was there a workgroup? What when on in this workgroup?

This was a confirmation program for the St. James Church.

We meet weekly. The program always uses former students so to speak as guides to assist. We divide the kids up and each week they get a new pair of youth minister guides.

Each group can vary between a lesson from the bible or a group talk about a current issue and how if affects their faith.

Another group focused on the confirmation name, the students would choose their own name and had to write a response as to why they choose it. Obviously popular names are major saints or gospel writers.

Another part was questioners. Asking students what would they do. We submitted the questions after the meeting. The goal is to identify those who really don't want to be there, in which case the program leader would one on one talk with them. We didn't want people doing just just because they felt they had too. We didn't have any my year doing this, but she has had students who don't go through with the program by choice, her job then becomes an offer to talk to the parents about it who are probably the most stubborn about the process.

I'd call those occasional examples peer pressure coming from the parents but I didn't see any of it my year doing this. Thinking up a name and walking the aisle seemed a big point of pride for everyone.

large groups of kids? Why is that needed?

It's a large group because my year helping was over 80 students? It makes sense to do smaller groups and break up with new guides each week.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Aussie Lets get this straight, I have no problem with people believing in God, Jesus, Mohammed, etc. I do have a problem with the concept that according to your book, everyone but yourselves are going to hell. It's pretty much p!ssing off the rest of the world who's not Christian, and it p!sses you guys off when other religions do the same to you. It just seems like a lot of the main good points about Christianity are being obscured by the hateful and divisive nature of some apsects that affect all of society. It happens in government too, get so mixed up in the details and rules, that they seem to miss the point all together.

By asking that your asking many christians to ignore and separate themselves from long standing beliefs.

Your attempting the same concept which was used in Tim LaHayes fictional Left Behind series. In the series a fictional Cardinal denounced christianity and formed the Omega One Babylon Church, a church that accepted everyone and demanded everyone, even atheists go to heaven.

However such a church in the book didn't stop the fact hell was real and the church members and its founder were thrown into the fiery pit.

And yes, horrible example from a work of fiction, but it shows the point. Your asking christians to modify their belief to be more in accordance with your secular view. The assumption is religion is false, so it should be easy to modify how we practice.

In that case, your using same brainwashing techniques you accuse christians of.

[rez]

Quote by: HelioPrime Each group can vary between a lesson from the bible or a group talk about a current issue and how if affects their faith.

Like their faith matters? or that their faith is real?

Another part was questioners. Asking students what would they do.

When I go to science, history, guitar, computer, education workshops I am not asked "what I do". I am there to simply learn the information. Getting to know each other on a personal level is a form of brainwash.

We submitted the questions after the meeting. The goal is to identify those who really don't want to be there, in which case the program leader would one on one talk with them. We didn't want people doing just just because they felt they had too.

Who does things they don't really want to do? Are you suggesting they are somehow magically forced to go for some undetermined reason?

Gee I wonder what that reason is?

We didn't have any my year doing this, but she has had students who don't go through with the program by choice, her job then becomes an offer to talk to the parents about it who are probably the most stubborn about the process.

Brainwashing.

I'd call those occasional examples peer pressure coming from the parents but I didn't see any of it my year doing this. Thinking up a name and walking the aisle seemed a big point of pride for everyone.

and then getting dressed up in your suits and ties, having the parents all look at you. Its really fun, you even get a shit loads of money after the church session is over.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: rez Like their faith matters? or that their faith is real?

Since faith is matter of belief of course it is for the students.

When I go to science, history, guitar, computer, education workshops I am not asked "what I do". I am there to simply learn the information. Getting to know each other on a personal level is a form of brainwash.

Getting to know each other personally is brainwashing? So when we share about us stories in college thats social brainwashing? And when my teacher from Brazil tells us at home he can have more personal friendships outside of class with students: Again pure brainwashing?

If your going to claim your continues stance, like Tycoon I ask you admit the truth that every social situation and educational system is also brainwashing then.

Who does things they don't really want to do? Are you suggesting they are somehow magically forced to go for some undetermined reason? Gee I wonder what that reason is?

Part of the questioning is asking why were here. Everyone I talked to was proud to be going through the program. Is it so hard to imagine people as proud of their faith Rez?

and then getting dressed up in your suits and ties, having the parents all look at you. Its really fun, you even get a shit loads of money after the church session is over.

I must have missed out on the money part

Do I detect jealousy entering your debate now?

[Maryjane]

Aussie:

3) "LOVE BOMBING" - Creating a sense of family through physical touch, thought & feeling sharing and emotional bonding. father, son, holy spirit

Helio:

love bombing: Widow support groups, youth peer ministries, youth retreat programs, etc. It's all appeal to kids and part of being a modern church in the 21st century. Creating its own christian social networks is not the work of brainwashing, its the result of christians having the desire to have their own religious groups and organizations based out of faith.

I'm curious why you'd mention widowed support groups as an example of "love bombing." Do you know anything about widow support groups or were you just being snarky? We aren't forced to share our stories. We all don't see eye to eye. There are several in my support group I can't stand. Being widowed doesn't automatically make you a good person. None of the other criteria applies to us, so no, we don't fit the description of being "brainwashed."

I don't feel the need to make your argument for you, but a better example would have been AA support meetings. I don't have any personal experience with them, but I know a few people who have. They related to me that the meetings are similar to a cult like atmosphere and a reason why they didn't stick with the program.

[Aussie]

Quote by: HelioPrime By asking that your asking many christians to ignore and separate themselves from long standing beliefs. Your attempting the same concept which was used in Tim LaHayes fictional Left Behind series. In the series a fictional Cardinal denounced christianity and formed the Omega One Babylon Church, a church that accepted everyone and demanded everyone, even atheists go to heaven. However such a church in the book didn't stop the fact hell was real and the church members and its founder were thrown into the fiery pit. And yes, horrible example from a work of fiction, but it shows the point. Your asking christians to modify their belief to be more in accordance with your secular view. The assumption is religion is false, so it should be easy to modify how we practice. In that case, your using same brainwashing techniques you accuse christians of.

God wouldn't want a church where everyone is accepted??? Does he really care where my d!ck goes? (i'm actually hetero but you get my point). I'm just asking that Christians be accepting of everyone, just like Jesus was. I just can't imagine Jesus standing on a mound saying "all of ye who accept God into your lives will get into heaven, except you you you aaaaaaand you."

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Aussie God wouldn't want a church where everyone is accepted??? Does he really care where my d!ck goes? (i'm actually hetero but you get my point). I'm just asking that Christians be accepting of everyone, just like Jesus was. I just can't imagine Jesus standing on a mound saying "all of ye who accept God into your lives will get into heaven, except you you you aaaaaaand you."

So all christians are supposed to base their faith and beliefs off what an atheist thinks is fair?

Not that I don't agree with the fact it might seem unfair to say Muslims or Buddhists to to hell, but I wouldn't agree with the same for atheists.

Western religions have excluded groups since the dawn of time. Normally its groups who are outside the social realm of the religion, which is why I consider it a good possibility that all the major western religions differ only in story, but the same God and demand of treating others.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Maryjane I'm curious why you'd mention widowed support groups as an example of "love bombing." Do you know anything about widow support groups or were you just being snarky? We aren't forced to share our stories. We all don't see eye to eye. There are several in my support group I can't stand. Being widowed doesn't automatically make you a good person. None of the other criteria applies to us, so no, we don't fit the description of being "brainwashed." I don't feel the need to make your argument for you, but a better example would have been AA support meetings. I don't have any personal experience with them, but I know a few people who have. They related to me that the meetings are similar to a cult like atmosphere and a reason why they didn't stick with the program.

I only use the example because I know St James has such a support group. It's one of many programs or groups the church either runs or participates in.

How is that a bad example? All those were examples of normal socials groups under the influence of a church.

[Maryjane]

Quote by: HelioPrime I only use the example because I know St James has such a support group. It's one of many programs or groups the church either runs or participates in. How is that a bad example? All those were examples of normal socials groups under the influence of a church.

So as a non beliver I could join this grief group? Would I be free to express I'm an atheist and don't believe my husband is in a "better place?" Would they try to conform (brainwash) me into accepting their way of thinking? Would I be accused of disrupting the group by sharing my opinions and be asked to leave?

[Aussie]

Quote by: HelioPrime So all christians are supposed to base their faith and beliefs off what an atheist thinks is fair? Not that I don't agree with the fact it might seem unfair to say Muslims or Buddhists to to hell, but I wouldn't agree with the same for atheists. Western religions have excluded groups since the dawn of time. Normally its groups who are outside the social realm of the religion, which is why I consider it a good possibility that all the major western religions differ only in story, but the same God and demand of treating others.

Did Jesus exclude anyone?

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Aussie Did Jesus exclude anyone?

He didn't have a thing for tax collectors.

Herod and a number of other kings also suffered the wrath of God. At least according to story.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Maryjane So as a non beliver I could join this grief group? Would I be free to express I'm an atheist and don't believe my husband is in a "better place?" Would they try to conform (brainwash) me into accepting their way of thinking? Would I be accused of disrupting the group by sharing my opinions and be asked to leave?

Well since I've never even taken part in a meaning I can't say. But I'd imagine no, your be the fish out of water in the meeting.

Because its a christian support group. As such everyone there already believes in christians values or practices the faith so. As such I don't see any brainwashing of people who are already christian.

[Aussie]

Quote by: HelioPrime He didn't have a thing for tax collectors. Herod and a number of other kings also suffered the wrath of God. At least according to story.

The point I'm getting at is that at what point did Christianity start excluding select groups? It seems to be rules made up by the church (man) which have just carried on through the centuries. Have the teachings of Jesus been lost?

I think the following pastor has summed it up pretty well:

J. Oscar McCloud, Associate Pastor, Fifth Avenue Presbyterian Church
New York City

I suggest to you that it is the need to exclude and the fear of the "other," the hate for one who differs, and the silence of the community that allows violence to occur against people. It has happened to women, and still happens. It has happened to African-Americans, to Native Americans, to Asian Americans, to Hispanic Americans; and it is happening and will happen to new immigrants coming to this country unless we care. It happens to homosexuals. The brutal beating to death of Matthew Shepherd in Wyoming was the result of fear, the need to exclude that grew into hate that resulted in violence. The savage death of James Byrd, dragged behind a pickup truck in Texas, was because of the need to exclude that resulted in fear and hatred that ended in violence.

And, you know we Christians practice exclusion as well. Even in our churches do it: you're not Presbyterian, you're not Methodist, you're not Lutheran, you're not Baptist, you're not Catholic. Even we Christians exclude people based on non-essential standards. But Jesus did not do that. Jesus said to the disciples -- anyone who is not against us is for us!

And, because we practice exclusion out of fear and hatred inside the church, we question other people's faith, their level of commitment, their belief in God, and even their confession of faith! And this happens when we raise tradition above truth, and when we make conformity more important than commitment, and when we hold the word of Scripture more important than the Spirit of God.

We practice it when we challenge others with the old familiar question, "But what would Jesus do?" I've been convinced for some time that is not the right question for us Christians. The right question for us Christians is, "What would Jesus have us do?" But that's a more difficult question, and we seek to relieve ourselves of responsibility and say, "But O, what I could I do? I am only one person. No one would listen to me."