Religion and techniques of brainwashing

[JaneDoe321]

Quote by: Jack Those who don't understand what atheism is always make a muddle of it when they try to challenge it. How can atheism be taught, how can it be indoctrinated? There are no atheistic churches (well, a few on the internet, but they're spoofs), no atheistic Sunday schools, atheism isn't mentioned in the Pledge of Allegiance or taught by the Boy Scouts. Yes there are books promoting an atheistic view, there are websites doing the same (I own one), but you have to desire the information to seek it out. To shed religion and accept atheism, you have to think for yourself and reach that conclusion on your own. You can't begin to compare religious thought and atheism. One is a strict code of allegiance that requires loyalty and obedience and discourages skepticism and questioning. The other is simply the rejection of that mindset. It's the ultimate freeing of the mind.

WEEELLLLLLLLLLllllllllll...

Actually this isn't *strictly* true.

Sunday School for Atheists - TIME

However, this (and most Unitarian UNiversalist "Sunday Schools", many of which have chosen the name "Children's religious education" because "Sunday School" evokes too much of a memory of Sister Mary Crankipants with her ruler drilling bible verses into kids or whatever) doesn't so much "indoctrinate kids" into the "One True Mindset" of atheists (or UU's) (probably because that's completely contrary to our world view, by and large) as it provides a structured community for kids who tend to have a void in that regard.

This might be somewhat off topic, tho, maybe I should start a thread about the differences in "Sunday School" approaches?`

[Aussie]

Points have been raised saying that other organisations use some of these methods - granted. The point I'm making is the church uses ALL of these techniques.

Helio, you seem to be just saying how other organisations do it, it's not the point of my thread.

The question is - does it bother Christians the corollation between these methods, and the practices of church?

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Tycoon Schools do not use brainwashing. I'll prove that by debunking everything you said about schools next. Support groups are created to solve problems, unlike Christianity.

Those dress codes are in place to keep students from wearing offensive or distracting clothes. Social fashion trends have nothing to do with the school either, pressure to fit those trends comes from other students.

Don't beat around the bush. The OP uses dress code to prevent individuality from causing conflict and removing a potential distraction and cause of grief. Why is it ok in your mind for schools to enforce a dress code in a public school, yet a catholic school asking for a dress code is brainwashing?

If students want to do good in school they'll do good regardless of special titles. Students who don't care about doing good won't care about the titles either way.

Oh come now, thats what brainwashing is right? Subtle hints and prods to get you to see things in a certain light. Schools do exactly that, they mold you into the proper block that colleges want and convince you to go to college.

No, they don't. I haven't the slightest clue what you're talking about.

Did you ever visit a wildlife or nature center during school? Did the democratic party show up in high school and offer a presentation? Were you required to do community service with only select school approved organizations? Perhaps not all of those happened in your school but they happen here in CT.

And don't tell me you didn't have the DARE program. If were talking about technicalities isn't that technically brainwashing at an early age to hate drugs and not see them as a personal choice but an evil.

[quote]
They demand submission to authority if you do anything to defy it.
[quote]

LOL!

So religion is badddddd because it wants authority.

But kids! Always show respect to your secular figures!

The course material is relevant, and as I said before, it's necessary for your life after school. If you disagree with the course material then you're doing it for the sake of disagreeing. If you strongly disagree then become homeschooled. Nobody's forcing you to stay in public school.

School instructs you to follow their line of information, and gain knowledge in it. You are discouraged from thinking outside the box they develop for you. Sorry, if your going to claim christianity does that as brainwashing you have to admit schools do the same thing

Schools don't brainwash.

Repeat it three times wearing red glass slippers and make your wish come true!

[HelioPrime]

Oh and as for my source its an opinionated piece of writing?

Is there something wrong with free thinking people giving opinions on how school seems to be brainwashing students into becoming well behaved little socialist?

You claim that source isn't reliable but how so? What is reliability when it comes to a personal opinion? Is a reliable source only that which runs in tune with Mr. Tycoon's way of thinking?

[Tycoon]

Don't beat around the bush. The OP uses dress code to prevent individuality from causing conflict and removing a potential distraction and cause of grief. Why is it ok in your mind for schools to enforce a dress code in a public school, yet a catholic school asking for a dress code is brainwashing?

Oh come now, thats what brainwashing is right? Subtle hints and prods to get you to see things in a certain light. Schools do exactly that, they mold you into the proper block that colleges want and convince you to go to college.

You know what Helio? You're right, for the wrong reasons. You could look at these couple examples and say, schools use manipulation. But schools aren't intending to manipulate, they're intending to make the learning process as smooth as possible. Christianity manipulates people to make them believe in false beliefs.

Did you ever visit a wildlife or nature center during school? Did the democratic party show up in high school and offer a presentation? Were you required to do community service with only select school approved organizations? Perhaps not all of those happened in your school but they happen here in CT.

No, none of those things happened at my school. None at all.

And don't tell me you didn't have the DARE program. If were talking about technicalities isn't that technically brainwashing at an early age to hate drugs and not see them as a personal choice but an evil.

That's not what the DARE program teaches at all. They teach it's a personal choice, just that it's the wrong personal choice.

School instructs you to follow their line of information, and gain knowledge in it. You are discouraged from thinking outside the box they develop for you. Sorry, if your going to claim christianity does that as brainwashing you have to admit schools do the same thing.

I'm sorry, but when calculus teaches me the way to solve an equation I don't really see any out of the box way to look at it.

Repeat it three times wearing red glass slippers and make your wish come true!

See, I don't have to do that. I know that I'm right. As for you...

You ignore the main point and pick at a couple smaller points so that you can pretend to yourself that you're right. For example, just now, you're trying to prove a couple small ways schools brainwash, and you're completely disregarding the fact that Christianity brainwashes even more, and for the wrong reasons.

[Tycoon]

You claim that source isn't reliable but how so? What is reliability when it comes to a personal opinion? Is a reliable source only that which runs in tune with Mr. Tycoon's way of thinking?

I already showed it's unreliable. It itself is relying on manipulation, after all. The way it portrays an innocent little child proud to get his school materials only to have them taken away? Ridiculous. The school tells us we're getting the materials for them. I couldn't have cared less.

[Aussie]

Quote by: Tycoon You ignore the main point and pick at a couple smaller points so that you can pretend to yourself that you're right. For example, just now, you're trying to prove a couple small ways schools brainwash, and you're completely disregarding the fact that Christianity brainwashes even more.

Sorry Helio but you do appear to be doing this. I've re-stated the question a few times for clarification, you seem to be quite evasive with responses. It's a simple question.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Aussie Points have been raised saying that other organisations use some of these methods - granted. The point I'm making is the church uses ALL of these techniques. Helio, you seem to be just saying how other organisations do it, it's not the point of my thread. The question is - does it bother Christians the corollation between these methods, and the practices of church?

Because this isn't brainwashing. Not every church or group of christian churches preach the same way.

Lets look at two examples: Peer pressure, and dress codes.

Your claiming christianity reduces a person individuality with dress codes. Now what do you mean by that?

A catholic school has a uniform which in many cases is similar to dress code rules of normal private secular schools. So where do you draw your mysterious conclusion that dress codes in catholic schools are a negative while the dress code in a private school is just an acceptable policy.

And peer pressure? Lets use Jack and Sonart as examples. They were both raised christian yet left the faith on their own accord. Could there have been pressure from friends and family to be christian? Well yes of course, but thats a given in any social situation. Any group that teaches or instructs groups of people can have examples of pressure placed on people to stay accepted by the overall group. Its a human phenomenon, not a christian failing.

It's all in the eye of the beholder. To sit back and tell people that teaching religion in any form is brainwashing means you also have to accept any sort of education as brainwashing.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Tycoon I already showed it's unreliable. It itself is relying on manipulation, after all. The way it portrays an innocent little child proud to get his school materials only to have them taken away? Ridiculous. The school tells us we're getting the materials for them. I couldn't have cared less.

The article was written by a person who believers the school system instils a sense of group socialist thought and command obidience in children. He portrays his opinions well.

Why is it unreliable because of this? If a website offering opinion on christianity as brainwashing is offered up would it also be unreliable garbage in your opinion of does an articles weight depend on its stance? Do only articles that agree with your secular point of view hold water?

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Tycoon You know what Helio? You're right, for the wrong reasons. You could look at these couple examples and say, schools use manipulation. But schools aren't intending to manipulate, they're intending to make the learning process as smooth as possible. Christianity manipulates people to make them believe in false beliefs.

AHHA!

You've dropped the gloves I see.

You see? In the end this debate is based off the presumption christianity is already a proven false belief system. So in essence any theist trying to debate the point is forced into accepting your existing stance. So the debate fails before it begins.

Christianity is a false belief system to you, but not to others. So to demand they accept your terms isn't debate, its false presumptions and manipulation of information.

That's not what the DARE program teaches at all. They teach it's a personal choice, just that it's the wrong personal choice.

More of your personal choice in the matter? Is it really a schools job to tell kids Weed is a bad choice and you shouldn't smoke it? Not that I am giving my opinion on the matter but can you at least admit thats brainwashing. Grabbing kids at an early age to deplore drug use in an attempt to prevent drug use at an older ago.

You ignore the main point and pick at a couple smaller points so that you can pretend to yourself that you're right. For example, just now, you're trying to prove a couple small ways schools brainwash, and you're completely disregarding the fact that Christianity brainwashes even more, and for the wrong reasons.

^ See the first point.

There is no answering questions when your assuming that christianity is a false belief system. That's like asking a devout Brooklyn conservative jew his opinion on wether or not making his wife stay inside during her period is oppression. He obviously doesn't share your view on PMS just being a perfectly natural event.

[Aussie]

Fine, schools brainwash. Again, you're picking up on two points only and, i've provided examples of how Christianity encapsulates ALL of the points hightlighted, not just some. Are you stating that it doesn't? Here's the points again with examples

2) PEER GROUP PRESSURE - Suppressing doubt and resistance to new ideas by exploiting the need to belong. - the church has a long history of this (didn't finish this sentance before)

3) "LOVE BOMBING" - Creating a sense of family through physical touch, thought & feeling sharing and emotional bonding. father, son, holy spirit

5) CONFUSING DOCTRINE - Encouraging blind acceptance and rejection of logic through complex lectures on an incomprehensible doctrine. - the Bible, full of contradictions people blindly ignore (saw a fellow blogger show through mathematical equations relating to water quantity, dissipation, etc how Noahs flood could not have happened, still refused cause the book said so), also, check does the baby go to hell, bible says yes and no.

6) METACOMMUNICATION - Implanting subliminal messages by stressing certain key words or phrases in long, confusing lectures. - many many examples of these sermons, rev falliwell, nile, etc

9) UNCOMPROMISING RULES - Inducing regression and disorientation by soliciting agreement to seemingly simple rules which regulate mealtimes, bathroom breaks and use of medications. - Many examples again

12) DRESS CODES - Removing individuality by demanding conformity to the group dress code. - clergy, nuns, preists, etc

13) CHANTING OR SINGING - Eliminating non-cult ideas through group repetition of mind-narrowing chants or phrases. Our father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name (that one got boring real quick, it was the real monotonous tone that got me with this one)

14) CONFESSION - Encouraging the destruction of individual ego through confession of personal weaknesses and innermost feelings of doubt. - Confession time, tell us your darkest sins

15) FINANCIAL COMMITMENT - Achieving increased dependence on the group by 'burning bridges' to the past, through the donation of assets. - visit Soloman Islands sometimes and see the Church get rich as the locals get poorer

16) FINGER POINTING - Creating a false sense of righteousness by pointing to the shortcomings of the outside world. - daily

18) CONTROLLED APPROVAL - Maintaining vulnerability and confusion by alternately rewarding and punishing similar actions. - who actually gets into heaven or hell?? It would seem by religious default that no one is going anyway!


21) NO QUESTIONS - Accomplishing automatic acceptance of beliefs by discouraging questions. - this happened anytime I questioned the bible in school, I just wanted to understand?

22) GUILT - Reinforcing the need for 'salvation' by exaggerating the sins of the former lifestyles. - the cornerstone of many religions

23) FEAR - Maintaining loyalty and obedience to the group by threatening soul, life or limb for the slightest 'negative' thought, word or deed. - well there's not much that wouldn't damn us to hell given the rule book.

[HelioPrime]

Would you want a direct response to each example? I'll need some time to write out each response and not leave anything out.

But overall your question was are christians comfortable with these and I say why not?

I see only a number of sometimes gross examples or over simplifications stemming out of a secular view. In such a secular view of course your going to see every aspect of religion as brainwashing.

So my question to you is: Why is it you want christians to agree with you that religion brainwashes? Obviously many will not agree with your initial premise that religion is a false belief system so they will not see any of the above as brainwashing.

The point of this thread seems to be to get theists to accept a secularly motivated reason for teaching religion.

[Tycoon]

The article was written by a person who believers the school system instils a sense of group socialist thought and command obidience in children. He portrays his opinions well.

Portraying his opinion well and manipulation are different things.

Why is it unreliable because of this? If a website offering opinion on christianity as brainwashing is offered up would it also be unreliable garbage in your opinion of does an articles weight depend on its stance? Do only articles that agree with your secular point of view hold water?

It's unreliable because it doesn't show at all that schools brainwash or manipulate. It says, oooh look, your child is going to a government run facility. And they collect school materials! Aha! Manipulation! Disregard the fact that the children are told the school is going to collect the materials, but make it look like the government is taking something important away from them to teach them a lesson.

Christianity is a false belief system to you, but not to others. So to demand they accept your terms isn't debate, its false presumptions and manipulation of information.

If it were true then it wouldn't have to rely on manipulation and brainwashing, would it? And regardless of whether it's true or not, it's relying on manipulation and brainwashing.

More of your personal choice in the matter? Is it really a schools job to tell kids Weed is a bad choice and you shouldn't smoke it? Not that I am giving my opinion on the matter but can you at least admit thats brainwashing. Grabbing kids at an early age to deplore drug use in an attempt to prevent drug use at an older ago.

It's not brainwashing, they're not telling them drugs are evil in the way you expressed. Would you rather the kids only got the impression that drugs are cool? Would you rather they weren't informed about drugs?

There is no answering questions when your assuming that christianity is a false belief system. That's like asking a devout Brooklyn conservative jew his opinion on wether or not making his wife stay inside during her period is oppression. He obviously doesn't share your view on PMS just being a perfectly natural event.

I didn't say that Christianity was false in that quote. I said you have failed to acknowledge that Christianity uses brainwashing, and instead trying to find little examples of how other institutions do as well.

[Tycoon]

Would you want a direct response to each example? I'll need some time to write out each response and not leave anything out.

Yes, thank you.

I see only a number of sometimes gross examples or over simplifications stemming out of a secular view. In such a secular view of course your going to see every aspect of religion as brainwashing.

That doesn't mean we're wrong.

So my question to you is: Why is it you want christians to agree with you that religion brainwashes? Obviously many will not agree with your initial premise that religion is a false belief system so they will not see any of the above as brainwashing.

Okay, forget I assumed Christianity was false. Now my question is to you, why can't you agree that Christianity brainwashes and indoctrinates young children?

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Tycoon Okay, forget I assumed Christianity was false. Now my question is to you, why can't you agree that Christianity brainwashes and indoctrinates young children?

I can agree that in has the potential to when abused some cases. Perfect example is the movie Jesus Camp.

But beyond that no, I don't see religion as any more or less brainwashing than any other group or activity system out there.

[Tycoon]

I can agree that in has the potential to when abused some cases. Perfect example is the movie Jesus Camp.

The examples of brainwashing Aussie listed in the OP weren't just things that happen when the church abuses its power. Many of those examples occur in everyday worship.

But beyond that no, I don't see religion as any more or less brainwashing than any other group or activity system out there.

What about all those examples? I'm sure you could link a couple to several different groups, but they all come together in Christianity.

[Aussie]

Quote by: HelioPrime So my question to you is: Why is it you want christians to agree with you that religion brainwashes? Obviously many will not agree with your initial premise that religion is a false belief system so they will not see any of the above as brainwashing.

Because I'm genuinely worried about the state of the world and where it is heading. I'm worried that children are being told horrible things to keep them in check through various techniques of brainwashing. If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck....

Lets get this straight, I have no problem with people believing in God, Jesus, Mohammed, etc. I do have a problem with the concept that according to your book, everyone but yourselves are going to hell. It's pretty much p!ssing off the rest of the world who's not Christian, and it p!sses you guys off when other religions do the same to you.

It just seems like a lot of the main good points about Christianity are being obscured by the hateful and divisive nature of some apsects that affect all of society. It happens in government too, get so mixed up in the details and rules, that they seem to miss the point all together.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Tycoon The examples of brainwashing Aussie listed in the OP weren't just things that happen when the church abuses its power. Many of those examples occur in everyday worship. .

Peer Pressure: This is just a regular event. Peer pressure stems from any situation involving groups of people. To discredit christianity as guilty of it is only to admit peer pressure exists in any situation. Counter Example: A sole girl who is christian goes to school far away to a very liberal college. She feels pressured into having sex, drug us, and joining in on religious jokes because she wants to fit in and make friends. Peer Pressure.

Confusing doctrine: Result of over a thousand years of human conflict and separation. I don't see where this is brainwashing. Interpretation of a book that has been translated and carried across longer than any well known literature always leaves room for disagreement. Again, just the result of human interpretation.

If your going to try that "Well if God was perfect shouldn't all religion be clear and easy to understand" I leave, because thats not debate, its rhetorical personal opinions presented as a fact.

Dress Code: I responded to this. But let me ask this. If a christian high school requires a dress code and a private secular normal high school requires a dress code then why is only one brainwashing.

metacommunication: Are you kidding? And subliminal messaging isn't used everyday to sell cigarettes, booze, sex, and all number of other things? I see this point stemming again out of the atheist belief the religion is false, so hence any teaching of it is brainwashing.

love bombing: Widow support groups, youth peer ministries, youth retreat programs, etc. It's all appeal to kids and part of being a modern church in the 21st century. Creating its own christian social networks is not the work of brainwashing, its the result of christians having the desire to have their own religious groups and organizations based out of faith.

chanting or singing: Call it tradition. Does singing hail marys get you into heaven? No promises, but some people have the desire to do this. Most christians I know ENJOY the choir or singing or taking part in the liturgy.

confession: This is a staple of the faith. To confess away sins. Depending on who you ask you don't always need the priest and a both. That part is leftover tradition. Personally I think God knows when your repenting, and the booth just serves as a way to preserve some part of the past tradition. Plus its sometimes easier, the priest is skilled many times at guiding you through questions and being someone there to talk to.

Guilt: Another item from the stance of unbelief. Some christians believe in hell. If you sin you are putting yourself further from God, so there should be guilt associated. Guilt is present beyond religion as well, if you murder someone the guilt can eat at you. Secular organizations use the guilt of burning more gas by saying your supporting terrorism by using middle east oil.

Fear: Yet again: Stance of disbelief. Those who don't believe in hell of course naturally think its silly to fear it. Those who do believe should rightly so be afraid.

Financial commitments: There are plenty of churches out there that just get by or are run only off the will and hardwork of a local pastor who not only has to provide for himself, but attempt to provide something for all of his flock.

No questions: Well I've yet to meet a clergy member who didn't welcome debate or dialogue over faith. Of course I'm sure the world has plenty enough of the Phelps style absolute fundamentalist but I don't see where their presence discredits christianity as a whole.


Thats all I can toss together now. I'll return later to respond to the other questions if you want.

[Technosoul]

We might as well admit that it is mild brainwashing to make people want to conform to the autosuggestions of the church. We might as well admit this is also done in schools, a work places, and by the governments.

All this is only a problem if it ruins your life so that you go over the line that only independancy can provide.

Sush as what happen in Germany under Hitler, or in the Heaven;s Gate Cult, or the Jim Jones incident. Or if you totally reject your children because they want to drop out of a church or "group" indentity. If it causes you conflct with living a life where you feel you must also conform to other groups that do the same thing.

It is best to seperate your self from such groups so that you can think for your self and so that you can be your own authority (within reason).

Dare to be aware. People are trying to brainwash you everyday in every way.

[Technosoul]

If you belong to the Hell's Angels Motorcycle club you are brainwashed, wear the same jackets, follow the same codes of the road, and do the same rituals, you conform to all that, and it is a religion based on some ideal of freedom and being wild. It is identical to being a Christian, or as someone in the military (after boot camp brainwashing) and so forth. I speak with reality in saying that religion is like a wolf in sheeps clothing, and they would consume even a babe at birth if they could get away with it. Be aware, beware.

You become pack animals with a leader of the pack, no doubt about it.

There is nothing wrong with someone who comes along and tries to make you aware of that. We have a saying in my field "when in Rome do as the Romans do". Because it is best for you to blend in so you are not viewed as a trouble maker by the larger group. But in secret you should hold on to your self, and not loose you individual spirit to the beast that will consume you into it's larger identity. Do not practice isolation but also do not join anything. Be like the wind in the trees.

Not a single person will admit to being brainwashed by their organized religion, their cults, their social sub groups, or their mainstream poltical party. They know that once you are hooked your ego will become defensive if someone attempts to bust your bubble.

But please, become aware of what is happening when those chruches try to brainwash you with all those methods that were posted (or some of those methods). Stand up and be the brave soul and tell your preacher man this is not right, we should not use such deceptions in the name of Truth, for that is taking the Lords Name in vain. We should not try to fluff it off and deny that this is happening within nearly all chruches as well as other organized religions. You should not sell religion like you would a six pack of beer. Wake up and be aware.