A baby is NOT born in debt

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: butterbut We are all guilty. If you haven't lied or stolen, then have you worshipped the Lord with all your heart every day of your life? I answered your questions although you may not like them.

So a baby did something already did something wrong upon being born? It's already in debt? Specifically because of Adam and Eve's mistake? Am I following you correctly?

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer So a baby did something already did something wrong upon being born? It's already in debt? Specifically because of Adam and Eve's mistake? Am I following you correctly?

Saying the baby is already in debt isn't correct according to scripture. Babies would go to purgatory to be cleansed alongside the unborn dead.

[JaneDoe321]

That's the point, Helio. *WHY* are they being cleansed?!

[Tycoon]

And at what age does a person become responsible to love and know God? Just more questions that Christianity cannot and will never be able to answer, because there are no answers.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: JaneDoe321 That's the point, Helio. *WHY* are they being cleansed?!

Depends on whom your asking. Directly scripture can suggest its because of original sin.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Tycoon And at what age does a person become responsible to love and know God? Just more questions that Christianity cannot and will never be able to answer, because there are no answers.

Um.. lets see well simple biology might be able to answer that. Would you give a auto license test to a 2 year old?

No.

So obviously once the child is self aware and aware of life and death then the child is responsible.

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer What has a new born baby done to be in a debt of such severity that it hangs in the balance of possible damnation?

Nothing. It doesn't.

What is Jesus forgiving this baby of? What the hell did it do?

A baby doesn't need forgiveness. Babies and children are so wonderfully free from sin that Jesus, on several occasions, told his followers to be more like children.

Mark 10:14-16
14 When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15 I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." 16 And he took the children in his arms, put his hands on them and blessed them.

How valuable is forgiveness under threat? Under circumstances? Under forced contract?

I don't know what you're talking about. Threat of what?

How evil is it to forgive mankind for something God caused but only if you worship his son?

Something God caused? Other than the existence of the universe I don't see what God caused that fits in here.

I don't know about you Christians, but when I see a beautiful healthy new baby.. I don't see a ticking contract.. I see hope. I see purity.

Well what do you know... You're doing what Jesus would do without even trying.




Annnnnnnnnnnd yet another thread in which we see that atheists' arguments hinge on their own warped and often downright incorrect understanding of religion(s).

[Jack]

Annnnnnnnnnnd yet another thread in which we see that atheists' arguments hinge on their own warped and often downright incorrect understanding of religion(s).

That might work except that Christianity isn't a single set of beliefs (for example, Helio has them going to purgatory, a concept most Protestants don't accept) and some of have been theists and know the beliefs from that viewpoint.

[Maryjane]

I do believe I already said that..

quote by me:
[quote]I'm not sure what the answer is? Depending on which faith you ask, a lot of people will try to rationalize it's gods way of punishing them, not the child. I suppose that's why there are so many denominations?[/QUOTE]

[Jack]

lets see well simple biology might be able to answer that. Would you give a auto license test to a 2 year old?

Geez, when I took biology we never discussed the age at which the state issues driver's licenses as a criteria for mental maturity.

How things have changed in the last 30 years.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: tivodan1116 Annnnnnnnnnnd yet another thread in which we see that atheists' arguments hinge on their own warped and often downright incorrect understanding of religion(s).

That's funny, I got the crap in the OP from Christians.

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: Jack That might work except that Christianity isn't a single set of beliefs (for example, Helio has them going to purgatory, a concept most Protestants don't accept) and some of have been theists and know the beliefs from that viewpoint.

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer That's funny, I got the crap in the OP from Christians.

See above. You have a misunderstanding of Christian beliefs - part of your misunderstanding would be that you rely on someone who arbitrarily labels themselves a Christian and accepting their words as the actual beliefs of a Christian.

It's an appeal to authority fallacy that atheists make in almost every debate they have over religion, and if anyone else made it in regards to any other debate, those same atheists would tear them to shreds.

[Jack]

part of your misunderstanding would be that you rely on someone who arbitrarily labels themselves a Christian and accepting their words as the actual beliefs of a Christian.

And who stands as judge as to whose beliefs are actual and whose aren't? It's the True Scotsman fallacy again, and we don't buy it.

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: Jack And who stands as judge as to whose beliefs are actual and whose aren't? It's the True Scotsman fallacy again, and we don't buy it.

Well you can look at the New Testament for one.

The difference is that I can support my claim that Christianity does not condemn babies as sinful and send them to hell by using the Bible itself (even better - the New Testament). People who believe otherwise cannot.

[JaneDoe321]

Quote by: HelioPrime Depends on whom your asking. Directly scripture can suggest its because of original sin.

Right. And since none of the babies born since the alleged "original sin" have actually *committed* it again (I mean, that would be "unoriginal sin"), why are they being punished for it?

Unless you're going to say purgatory isn't punishment (albeit not eternal).

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: JaneDoe321 Right. And since none of the babies born since the alleged "original sin" have actually *committed* it again (I mean, that would be "unoriginal sin"), why are they being punished for it? Unless you're going to say purgatory isn't punishment (albeit not eternal).

How is an eternal reward punishment?

Purgatory would be only a waiting period. Left free of bodies a baby could mature in mind enough to be cleanses of sin and welcomed in heaven.

Of course what does anyone living know, since few to none have returned and those who have are regarded as looney's.

[Jack]

Well you can look at the New Testament for one. The difference is that I can support my claim

As can Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans and Pentecostals. Yet none agrees with the other. So who's the "true" Christian and presents the "true" Christian stance on the topic?

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: Jack As can Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans and Pentecostals. Yet none agrees with the other. So who's the "true" Christian and presents the "true" Christian stance on the topic?

You say others can support their beliefs with Bible text that makes theirs "correct" Christian beliefs, etc. We're getting a bit lax here, and my ecumenical nature has always lent me to think that many denominations have good beliefs.

My responses are limited to this scope only:

The OP said that babies are born condemned according to "Christian" beliefs. I said that is incorrect, and according to Christian beliefs they are not condemned and in fact babies and children are among God's most blessed.

To show your point to be valid, you must show via proof that (a) there are Christian denominations that believe babies are condemned to hell at birth (as the OP says), (b) that those denominations source that belief with specific Bible verses, and finally (c) what those verses are.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: tivodan1116 The OP said that babies are born condemned according to "Christian" beliefs.

No, actually, I didn't. wtf?


I said they are born in debt to Jesus. With original sin. For something they didn't do.

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer No, actually, I didn't. wtf? I said they are born in debt to Jesus. With original sin. For something they didn't do.

Maybe you should go back and read your own posts.

Quote by: You, in the OP What has a new born baby done to be in a debt of such severity that it hangs in the balance of possible damnation?