A baby is NOT born in debt

[butterbut]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer What has a new born baby done to be in a debt of such severity that it hangs in the balance of possible damnation?.

What makes you think newborn babies are in danger of damnation?

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Anmon Do you have any proof that most Christians are 'evolving' away from what your version of what reason is?

Yeah. We don't often hear about Christians doing the things the Bible demands of them.

I guess I'm guilty of assuming that at one point Christians DID do those things.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: butterbut What makes you think newborn babies are in danger of damnation?

They already have an inherented sin that will lead them to damnation unless they find and accept Jesus as their savior or something along those lines. Says Christianity.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: HelioPrime So christianity is false because babies born in China go to hell? Does it specifically say babies from china and does it say babies too? So babies go to hell. Lets stand that alone. How does that clearly prove christianity (as a scripture) false?

It doesn't clearly prove Christianity is false. I never claimed it did.. yet you assume that's what I'm doing in every thread.

Things that are nonsensical like babies being born as slaves to Jesus shed DOUBT on the religion being the product of the God described so highly by the Bible when the alternative is that it is like every other religion: made by man, thus, the nonsensical and hateful parts make perfect perfect sense.

[butterbut]

Quote by: Maryjane Then why is there baptism?

Jesus, was baptized. He is perfect and so he was never in danger of hell. His baptism was an anointing from God to start his ministry.

I understand baptism as a public declaration of faith by which we receive power from the Holy Spirit.

Infant baptism is a weird thing. You can read about it here if your curious.

.Methodists: Infant Baptism

[JaneDoe321]

That baby deserves to be born into spiritual debt for choosing parents who would go with such a freakin' awful decorating scheme, color-wise. Jeesh.

[JaneDoe321]

Now that I have my sunglasses on...

I believe the Vatican recently revised their perspective on this. My grandmother (as an example) had a baby who was stillborn. My stillborn uncle was buried outside of the "sanctified" portion of the cemetary, because at that time, unbaptised babies could not be buried in the regular section. It caused my grandmother *enormous* emotional anguish (on top of the "regular anguish" that goes along with losing a child) to think that her child was not going to heaven, all for the lack of a little sprinkling of holy water on the brow.

I recall that about the time that our own daughter was stillborn, which would have been ~~~50 years later, that it was mentioned on a support group forum that the Catholic church no longer forbade unbaptised babies from being buried in the regular section of the cemetary. I don't really know what that means from the perspective of what supposedly happens to their souls, but I thought it was a strange and rather random decision.

[butterbut]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer They already have an inherented sin that will lead them to damnation unless they find and accept Jesus as their savior or something along those lines. Says Christianity.

The vast majority of christians I know don't beleive this.

Stop using extreme views of a small groups of Christians to charactize the nature of God as whole. Instead, try to understand the religion so that you will have an accurate opinion of it.

[butterbut]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer How valuable is forgiveness under threat? Under circumstances? Under forced contract?

What do you mean by valuable?

[butterbut]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer How evil is it to forgive mankind for something God caused but only if you worship his son? .

What is your definition of evil?

Mine is that evil is rebellion from God, plain and simple. God did not cause us to sin. Would you rather God un-made you? Then you would be releived of your duty to serve him. However, you would not share in the joy that comes from pursuing a relationship with Jesus Christ.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: butterbut Stop using extreme views of a small groups of Christians to charactize the nature of God as whole. Instead, try to understand the religion so that you will have an accurate opinion of it.

I'm pretty sure "original sin" or what ever it's called is a pretty damn common belief amongst Christians.

[butterbut]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer I'm pretty sure "natural sin" or what ever it's called is a pretty damn common belief amongst Christians.

Well, I can tell you for a fact that "original sin" is a common beleif. I can also tell you for a fact that the vast majority of Christians (and I know quite a few) don't beleive infants go to hell.

One thing I've learned during my walk with God is that if something just doesn't make sense, you're the one thats wrong, not God.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: butterbut One thing I've learned during my walk with God is that if something just doesn't make sense, you're the one thats wrong, not God.

Always?

[butterbut]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Always?

Yes. I don't have the answer to every single question but I have enough answers to know that my faith is based on very solid ground.

[Jack]

One thing I've learned during my walk with God is that if something just doesn't make sense, you're the one thats wrong, not God.

Thanks for exposing another negative aspect of Christianity I find annoying, rude and unnecessary. It requires a person to demean themselves, denounce their own self worth, put themselves down in deference to an imaginary overlord that wants to be loved...by "worthless" humans.

[butterbut]

Quote by: Jack Thanks for exposing another negative aspect of Christianity I find annoying, rude and unnecessary. It requires a person to demean themselves, denounce their own self worth, put themselves down in deference to an imaginary overlord that wants to be loved...by "worthless" humans.

The glass is half full. We are "worthless" enough that Jesus suffered and died for us.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: butterbut Yes.

That's quite a useful position to be holding in a DEBATE..

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: butterbut The glass is half full. We are "worthless" enough that Jesus suffered and died for us.

Died for those that will worship him. "Forgiven" for something we didn't do.


Why hasn't anyone even answered the OP's questions?

[butterbut]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Died for those that will worship him. "Forgiven" for something we didn't do. Why hasn't anyone even answered the OP's questions?

We are all guilty. If you haven't lied or stolen, then have you worshipped the Lord with all your heart every day of your life?

I answered your questions although you may not like them.

[Jack]

We are all guilty.

The only thing we are all "guilty" of is being human, and since that's not a crime, guilt is an inappropriate term.

While I say that perfection is poorly defined and unrealistic, we humans do have ideals. Being human, we fail to live up to our ideals frequently.

Children do not yet have ideals. There is no failure, no shortcomings in children. After a few years, after their parents have instilled their ideals in their kids and the kids start to develop their own, then they first taste the feeling of failing to live up to our own ideals.

Religious guilt over displeasing some god only adds to human suffering. It achieves no healthy objective.