Is the afterlife even possible?

[Darebirth]

Before I ask the main question of this topic, I should explain exactly what "life" is. Life is our own existence based on our natural means of observation, or our five senses.

Sight: We can use our eyes to intake light from the objects around us. We can observe the world around us by seeing these objects.Your brain will then perceive this image.

Hearing: We can use our ears to pick up sound waves. We know that hearing is also controlled by our brain, because certain noises can directly effect our brain.

Touch: The nerves in your skin, all part of the nervous system, all link up to your spine which links to your brain. Your brain sends sensations to a spot on your body when it comes in contact with something.

Smell: We can observe the world around us by the aromas that certain objects send off. We know that smell has its roots in our brains, because certain smells can effect our brains directly.

Taste: From the tastebuds on our tounges, we can taste food. While it would seem somewhat useless, it is still a way to observe the world. Taste is controlled by our brain because certain foods or liquids can directly effect our brain.

Without these five senses, there really is no way to be sure if you are or aren't alive. All of these senses can be explained physically, through your eyes, ears, skin, nose, tounge, and ultimatly your brain.

But when you die, these things are taken away from you. You brain dies, which essentially kills everything in your whole body. Your blood stops, your nervous system dies, and eventually all of your senses are gone because your brain can no longer uphold them.

Any religious out there, please explain to me how an afterlife is even possible if we no longer have any of our senses to expierience this "afterlife" then?

[Jack]

An interesting take on the topic.

I've long wondered about heaven as an afterlife. Supposedly it's perfect, no sin, no evil, nothing but goodness and light. Well, we know we can only perceive because of differences. If I was in a brightly lit pure white room with no shadows, I'd be unable to distinguish walls from floors.

If heaven is all one quality without any opposite it couldn't be perceived. What is "all goodness" without non-goodness to give it definition? What is "complete joy" without any non-joyous emotion against which to compare it?

The whole afterlife concept is poorly thought-out and unrealistic. It doesn't stand up to critical consideration.

[davedes]

Quote by: Jack If heaven is all one quality without any opposite it couldn't be perceived. What is "all goodness" without non-goodness to give it definition? What is "complete joy" without any non-joyous emotion against which to compare it?

What makes you think our current (physical) lives can't be used in comparison? ie. We perceive Heaven as "paradise" only when compared to our developed physical life.

I agree that the afterlife is generally poorly thought out, though!

Quote by: Darebirth Without these five senses, there really is no way to be sure if you are or aren't alive. All of these senses can be explained physically, through your eyes, ears, skin, nose, tounge, and ultimatly your brain.

Have you heard of an out-of-body experience or near-death experience?

During this state, many individuals remain conscious and aware even though they receive no physical sensory input (eyes, ears, nerves, etc). Interestingly, there are also plenty of reports of vivid sight, sound, touch, and other senses during the "out-of-body" state.

The obvious assumption is that these are simply hallucinations generated by the brain, but many experiences seem to question such an assumption. For example, a Lancet study on NDEs notes that NDEs were recorded even during the time that the EEG was "totally flat" (ie. zero brain activity). Futhermore, there have been many anecdotal reports[1][2] of veridical out-of-body experiences that imply it is not mere hallucination.

If there is any credibility left in the concept of the afterlife, perhaps it will be brought out through NDE/OBE research.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Darebirth But when you die, these things are taken away from you. You brain dies, which essentially kills everything in your whole body. Your blood stops, your nervous system dies, and eventually all of your senses are gone because your brain can no longer uphold them. Any religious out there, please explain to me how an afterlife is even possible if we no longer have any of our senses to expierience this "afterlife" then?

Because you won't need the physical senses. In the christian belief it is the soul that is saved. The soul doesn't have any visible properties we can see and evaluate.

Additionally you don't need the senses to experience things. The body is capable of dreaming up experiences on its own. Perhaps death leads to a transfer of the soul into a realm that isn't bound by physical limitation such as needed a real body with blood and bones. Of course since we can't see such an afterlife we have no way of telling.

Which makes perfect sense in a faith where people are judged after death. As long as the afterlife remains unknown then there is always room for reward and punishment.

[Tycoon]

Additionally you don't need the senses to experience things. The body is capable of dreaming up experiences on its own. Perhaps death leads to a transfer of the soul into a realm that isn't bound by physical limitation such as needed a real body with blood and bones. Of course since we can't see such an afterlife we have no way of telling.

Without ever having the use of the five senses one cannot dream, just in the way that if you cannot hear you cannot properly speak, because you don't know what those experiences are supposed to be like.

[Jack]

Of course since we can't see such an afterlife we have no way of telling.

There's also no reason to believe that souls are real.

[HelioPrime]

And no reason to suppose they are not real.

Depends on wether or not you put stock in only things which have absolute evidence. In which case if this was 1500 then you'd have to be telling me there is no way possible to ever reverse cardiac arrest or that humans have a genetic DNA that determines the outcome of life. You'd be required to say there is no reason to suppose such ideas have any validity.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Tycoon Without ever having the use of the five senses one cannot dream, just in the way that if you cannot hear you cannot properly speak, because you don't know what those experiences are supposed to be like.

Assuming that heave is part of the physical realm and you require a body and blood.

Your assumption.

[Anmon]

Its called the soul DB, that goes on.
If your good it goes to a better place.
If your evil to hell, or maybe it just dies with the rest of you and rots in the ground.

[Jack]

Depends on wether or not you put stock in only things which have absolute evidence.

Absolute evidence? How about no evidence at all. Your examples included nothing that has been discovered to be supernatural. Poor analogies. Besides, trying to obfuscate the issue doesn't provide any enlightenment. Where's the soul, what's the soul, what does it look like, where did it come from...?

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Jack Absolute evidence? How about no evidence at all. Your examples included nothing that has been discovered to be supernatural. Poor analogies. Besides, trying to obfuscate the issue doesn't provide any enlightenment. Where's the soul, what's the soul, what does it look like, where did it come from...?

Ah, the favored roundabout response from the atheists!

Why does the soul have to have visible properties?

There is no pretext to is being something visible, so there is not reason to demand that it be visible today.

Your asking a question with an assumption the item is question must be visible, so your not really asking a question, more just stating a trick question that you already have your own biased answer too.

[Jack]

Bad presumption; I am asking a question. When Christians say the word "soul", they must have some idea what they're talking about. So what is it? Describe it, define it, show it to me. Is there any substance behind the word?

[HelioPrime]

It's the part of you that imagines and thinks. If the body is brain dead even intact there is no long a person there. That's what it is. Of course that's just my take. Every humans has it, its what separates us from process bound machines and instinct bound animals.

For 2000 years nobody had a problem with the concept of a soul. Why is it such a bother to you now?

[Jack]

For 2000 years nobody had a problem with the concept of a soul. Why is it such a bother to you now?

The more we understand about the body and mind, the less these superstitious beliefs can hide in ignorance. Before we had any idea about the mind-brain functionality, we imagined all sorts of nonsense, like evil spirits causing epilepsy and a draught causing colds. Does anyone think that cats steal the breath of babies? We did for centuries. Why did we quit thinking that?

It's the part of you that imagines and thinks.

That's the result of brain activity. What might convince me otherwise?

[davedes]

I don't like the idea of the soul... I feel it leads to the same sort of un-scientific thinking that existed hundreds of years ago.

With that said, though, I am open (albeit skeptical) to the idea of consciousness existing after death. I don't like the labels of Heaven/Hell because I feel that if it were to be true, there would be a very rational and scientific explanation to it.

Quote by: Jack That's the result of brain activity. What might convince me otherwise?

Did you see my last post? I linked to a study that claims "consciousness" and "awareness" was recorded during flat EEG (zero brain activity).

I'm not trying to convince you of anything, as I do not truly believe it myself. In that particular study, there are obviously concerns with accuracy, sample size, honesty, etc. that may explain away the strange occurrences. But I do think it would be wise to study and review such findings, rather than simply throw them out the window as pure bunk.

[Jack]

But I do think it would be wise to study and review such findings, rather than simply throw them out the window as pure bunk.

I agree and am watching the progress in this field. However, I see no reason to expect we're going to discover some otherworldly, supernatural force at work in our bodies. The evidence thus far is very subjective, poorly documented and hard to quantify. But I wouldn't be surprised to find that the brain is an amazingly under-rated organ. I doubt we understand a quarter of what it can do.

[sdbest]

Quote by: Darebirth Sight... Hearing... Touch... Smell... Taste... Without these five senses, there really is no way to be sure if you are or aren't alive... But when you die, these things are taken away from you. Any religious out there, please explain to me how an afterlife is even possible if we no longer have any of our senses to expierience this "afterlife" then?

Just to add a complicating factor, for the a major part of every day most people effectively lose their five senses. It happens during sleep. However, despite the lack of information from the senses, many people have vivid experiences in dreams that not only rival their "real' world experiences, but also exceed them in vividness and experiential range. Wet dreams and nightmares come to mind. In some cultures, the dream world is considered to be as real and valid as the sensual world. It's just another place of existence.

Could the afterlife simply be a world of perpetual dreams?

[Jack]

Could the afterlife simply be a world of perpetual dreams?

If the brain ceases functioning at death, what's doing the dreaming?

[sdbest]

Quote by: Jack If the brain ceases functioning at death, what's doing the dreaming?

There's the grand question from which religion and spirituality springs--along with hope and hubris.

In my view, dead is dead. If you take care of yourself, have had the good fortune to be born into a reasonably well-off family in a safe country, don't smoke, and wear your seat belt, you'll get about 80 good years, and that's it. So, I suggest we all make the best of them, and stop griping that that's all there is or pretending that's there more.

[Jack]

We're on the same page there.

The fear of death is no different in kind than any other fear of the unknown. In degree it's greater because we know for a fact we can't escape it. But if we accept our natural fear of death, an evolutionary advantage, and contemplate the reasons for that fear, it loses its power to negatively impact our lives. We can enjoy every day without constantly worrying about it and without having to invent philosophical complexities to make us feel better about it.