Is the afterlife even possible?

[Radarlove]

Zhavric,

The difference between us is - I have done the research - you haven't. If you had spent 25 years extensively covering the areas I have explored. And then decided on an opposite viewpoint to mine. I would take your opinion more seriously. :o)

[Morality Games]

Quote by: Radarlove Zhavric, The difference between us is - I have done the research - you haven't. If you had spent 25 years extensively covering the areas I have explored. And then decided on an opposite viewpoint to mine, I would take your opinion more seriously. :o)

A wasted 25 years if you think talking to people who have had experiences constitutes weighty evidence as opposed to floppy, unmanly evidence. Phenomenal experience, while special, is private and could be imaginary. It is no sure measure of truth.

Don't you think you are coming across a bit insecure? You're selling your "credentials" as if they are going out of style.

[Maryjane]

I'm waiting to hear just what it is the dead can do in the afterlife..

The difference between us is - I have done the research - you haven't. If you had spent 25 years extensively covering the areas I have explored. And then decided on an opposite viewpoint to mine. I would take your opinion more seriously. :o)

You see...I have a dead husband. That's the difference between us. What kind of money did you have to pay to attend these seminars and channelers?

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Radarlove Zhavric, The difference between us is - I have done the research - you haven't. If you had spent 25 years extensively covering the areas I have explored. And then decided on an opposite viewpoint to mine. I would take your opinion more seriously. :o)

Thank you for that textbook example of the appeal to authority fallacy. Now, would you care to address what I've stated or should I conclude that you're involvement in this debate has run it's course?

[davedes]

Quote by: Zhavric Quote by: WakeFTU I'm not religious, but consciousness doesn't die. Yes. Yes it does. ... Should I bother asking you to prove what you stated?

I ask you the same, Zhavric. Where is the concrete, verifiable, testable and empirical evidence that shows consciousness does indeed die with the mind?

Quote by: Zhavric Still waiting for evidence that proves the alleged visions of an NDE took place during the time when a person was dead and not when they were unconscious, but alive. Got any?

Not all NDEs occur during the time of clinical death. To confirm that an NDE occurs during clinical death, we need veridical information that fits the timeframe of the flat EEG. A number of anecdotal reports have surfaced to support this.

... [during] the time that Pam was in standstill, she experienced a NDE. Her remarkably detailed veridical out-of-body observations during her surgery were later verified to be very accurate.

Source: People have near-death experiences while brain dead

... Sabom22 mentions a young American woman who had complications during brain surgery for a cerebral aneurysm. The EEG of her cortex and brainstem had become totally flat. After the operation, which was eventually successful, this patient proved to have had a very deep NDE, including an out-of-body experience, with subsequently verified observations during the period of the flat EEG.

Source: The Lancet: Near-death experience in survivors of cardiac arrest

This evidence is, of course, circumstantial at best. Anecdotal evidence rarely provides a compelling case, as interesting as it is to read.

Since veridical NDEs during clinical death tend to be difficult to study, perhaps the first obstacle we should tackle is whether veridical information can be gained from OBEs. Only then should we move on to the more serious question of whether veridical NDEs can occur during/after clinical death.

A lot of promising study is currently being done on the subject, often in a much more scientific and controlled manner than mere anecdotal reports (eg. [1][2][3][4]).

Titus Rivas wrote a couple of articles on the subject of NDE and the afterlife, for those interested:
The Survivalist Interpretation of Recent Studies into the Near-Death Experience
Consciousness during Clinical Death and after Irreversible Brain Death

PS: A conscious NDE while unconscious... Isn't that a paradox?

[Dadoo]

I see HelioPrimes's signature to be a clue to this enigma. DesCartes believed that it would be crazy to assume life ends, given the evidence of direct experience; we are witness to death, not participants. The mind forgets, the heart does not.. That which endures death lives on. Life unending/ immortality-- no afterlife for me! -Dadoo

[Radarlove]

Zhavric,

"or should I conclude that you're involvement in this debate has run it's course?"

Yes, it has. I will pass you over to Davedes. Meanwhile, at the given right time, I will see you on the other side. :o)

Good luck with your present atheistic beliefs.

Maryjane,

There are countless published books discussing the afterlife. If you are genuinely interested in researching the subject along with, most importantly, an open mind, then a visit to Amazon.com is always a good place to start.

Good luck with your journey.

Morality Games,

"Don't you think you are coming across a bit insecure?"

In fact, quite the opposite. I have never felt more secure in my life.

Ironically, it is often the atheists who feel the most insecure because the idea of there being an afterlife can make them feel uncomfortable and unsure - as it requires them to ask questions and view life in a far more expansive way.

The more expanded your consciousness becomes, the less fearful and the more secure you feel. Knowledge and awareness actually does help banish fear.

[Jack]

I am not here to have a spat. You have your views, I have mine. I am delighted for you if your atheistic beliefs give you comfort and contentment.

This is a debate forum. Nothing posted here is exempt from challenge.

[Morality Games]

In fact, quite the opposite. I have never felt more secure in my life.

Okay, but repeatedly insisting that your 'credentials' make you authentic is a textbook example of insecurity. You are being repetitous in other ways too which indicate insecurity, like insisting on the reality of the afterlife when the people you are responding to already know your position because you told them in much the same words in an earlier post.

Ironically, it is often the atheists who feel the most insecure because the idea of there being an afterlife can make them feel uncomfortable and unsure - as it requires them to ask questions and view life in a far more expansive way.

No, atheistic logic demands they reject any idea which doesn't pass their high standard of truth. No tangible evidence equals no belief. There is no sense in basing one's expectations of existence after death on intangible evidence. Why would they reject the idea of God for that reason and not the afterlife?

The more expanded your consciousness becomes, the less fearful and the more secure you feel. Knowledge and awareness actually does help banish fear.

An afterlife existing is acceptable, but believing an afterlife in light of humanity's collective experience and knowledge is too much of a leap of faith to be acceptable.

[Piscean]

An afterlife existing is acceptable, but believing an afterlife in light of humanity's collective experience and knowledge is too much of a leap of faith to be acceptable.

It's interesting that you say it's unacceptable to believe in an afterlife based on humanity's collective experience when you are talking to the guy who's done the research and studied humanity's collective experience with the afterlife. How can you not realize that?

I for one had my NDE when I was too young to have had ideas put in my head about what might happen after you die. The only reason I would attempt to debate the existence of an afterlife or continued life as I see it is because I've experienced it. I know I can't convince an atheist according to his or her rules but I feel obligated to acknowledge what I've experienced as a very life changing experience.

[Radarlove]

Piscean,

Thank you for mentioning your NDE. It takes courage to stick one's head above the parapet and dodge the bullets of the Atheist wrath.

During my research, I was surprised just how many have had an NDE or an OOBE and then kept quiet about it for fear of ridicule.

For example, a Gallup Poll in 1992 estimated that 13 million Americans or 5% of its population had experienced an NDE during their life.

It is a common world-wide phenomenon that, in my view, has occurred since mankind first graced the Earth. In the past, this knowledge was suppressed by religion. Today, the suppression has been joined by science. The two Superpower belief systems on our planet have come together, in my opinion, to create an unconscious 'conspiracy of silence'.

Therefore, the NDE and OOBE have little chance of being taken seriously, at present, and meanwhile, the needless fear of death prevails. At least, the status quo can sleep peacefully at night. :o)

Morality Games,

"believing an afterlife in light of humanity's collective experience and knowledge is too much of a leap of faith to be acceptable."

It is sad to come across someone who has lost all faith and trust in humanity's intelligence and perception.

[Jack]

The two Superpower belief systems on our planet have come together, in my opinion, to create an unconscious 'conspiracy of silence'.

Ah yes, the "Ben Stein Defense". If science has no evidence to work with, how do you expect scientists to evaluate the claims made? Perhaps if believers in NDEs can supply testable, credible evidence, we can use science to verify their claims. Science is a process of examining evidence. No evidence, nothing to examine. It's absurd to think religion and science would on some level work together to suppress the study of NDEs. I can't speak for religion, perhaps it would on its own. They've certainly tried to suppress inquiries before. But scientists have no reason to ignore evidence presented, if that evidence is able to be scientifically examined. Science is a tool to help us understand the natural world. It has no agenda to support.

Blaming the critics for one's own lack of convincing evidence isn't new.

[Morality Games]

It is sad to come across someone who has lost all faith and trust in humanity's intelligence and perception.

This is a debate forum. Respond to my allegations point-for-point or go away.

Anyway, you are right, I don't have faith in humanity's intelligence and perception, just mine and that of particular members of the species.

[geezarina]

This topic scares me slightly becasue as far as I can see, we will never be able to know if there is an after life or not (and by the time we do.. its too late). This always brings me to the topic of God and whether he is really or not and I get scared that if I dont believe in something when I die I will not be accepted into the afterlife (silly, i know!).

I think that if we knew everything in life then it would become boring becasue there would then be nothing to explore!

[Maryjane]

It is sad to come across someone who has lost all faith and trust in humanity's intelligence and perception.

Wow! A twofer! My other personal favorite. I pity you!

[Piscean]

This topic scares me slightly becasue as far as I can see, we will never be able to know if there is an after life or not (and by the time we do.. its too late). This always brings me to the topic of God and whether he is really or not and I get scared that if I dont believe in something when I die I will not be accepted into the afterlife (silly, i know!). I think that if we knew everything in life then it would become boring becasue there would then be nothing to explore!

Hey atleast your honest about what you feel. Being honest with yourself is the path of wisdom. Take it from someone who's seen it. You do live on, be happy about this it gives your life a lot more meaning then being temporary.

[Piscean]

Piscean, Thank you for mentioning your NDE. It takes courage to stick one's head above the parapet and dodge the bullets of the Atheist wrath. During my research, I was surprised just how many have had an NDE or an OOBE and then kept quiet about it for fear of ridicule. For example, a Gallup Poll in 1992 estimated that 13 million Americans or 5% of its population had experienced an NDE during their life. It is a common world-wide phenomenon that, in my view, has occurred since mankind first graced the Earth. In the past, this knowledge was suppressed by religion. Today, the suppression has been joined by science. The two Superpower belief systems on our planet have come together, in my opinion, to create an unconscious 'conspiracy of silence'. Therefore, the NDE and OOBE have little chance of being taken seriously, at present, and meanwhile, the needless fear of death prevails. At least, the status quo can sleep peacefully at night. :o)

Hey, thank you for coming on here and sharing what you've learned. I for one know you aren't deceiving anyone. It's good to hear about all the others who have died and come back changed like myself.

My story is pretty interesting. I was taken into surgery as a little kid (like 2 I think) I had a section of my intestines that didn't work right. Anyway during the surgery the anathestic actually killed me. I was out of my body for a few minutes. The surgeons were freaked out. I remember watching them and seeing my body. I was in the presence of something beyond great. I call this God or our source. Anyway pretty quickly I was taken back into my body and it came back to life. The surgeons never told my parents I had died on the operating table. While I was in recovery I drew a lot of pictures which caused my mom to realize something had happened. When she confronted the surgeons they admitted to her that they did lose me for a while. This is probably a pretty common thing from what you've studied but I figured I'd share.

[Radarlove]

Jack,

As you seem one of the few moderate atheists on this board I will respond to your post. I am presuming you mean Ben 'science kills people' Stein? A book I haven't read.

"if believers in NDEs can supply testable, credible evidence, we can use science to verify their claims."

My point all along about the NDE is: there is evidence; lots of evidence; sufficient evidence to sink a small aircraft carrier. Go to Davedes recent post. Click on the links; read the information. This is a tiny, tiny fraction of what is out there. A growing number of scientists and doctors are now taking the subject seriously.

But often, when science decides to disagree with an idea because it doesn't fit into their own scientific model, it will merely say, "Where is the evidence? There is not enough evidence." In a nutshell, there is never enough evidence, if science disagrees. So, it then becomes a catch 22.

"But scientists have no reason to ignore evidence presented.."

Research the recent anti-depressant scandal. The pharmaceutical sector has many cases where evidence has been twisted or ignored to fit a financial agenda. Science can be corrupted like anything else. The field is not a Saint.

In some areas science can become a mercenary to the highest bidder. "We will fit the evidence to fit the bill." This is occurring now within the global warming "billion dollar market" where scientists are being paid large sums of money to come up with evidence to fit the self interests of politicians and commerce.

"It has no agenda to support."

I obviously disagree with you. :o)

But science is not all bad. At times, it's extraordinary and dazzling. It has vastly improved the standard of living in the West. The advances in communication during the last 30 years has been incredible. But, like religion, science is fundamentally about gaining power over the people.

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Dadoo I see HelioPrimes's signature to be a clue to this enigma. DesCartes believed that it would be crazy to assume life ends, given the evidence of direct experience; we are witness to death, not participants. The mind forgets, the heart does not.. That which endures death lives on. Life unending/ immortality-- no afterlife for me! -Dadoo

Something, which very few must have understood easily.

I agree with you fully. I spoke the same thing in different words.

Nobody has seen his/her own death. Everyone sees others dieing. So to me, I feel I always exist i.e. eternal existence. So there is no death for REAL me (not talking of physical body) and therefore question of after life for me does not exist.

But then, if we talk with respect to what one generally mean by death and after life, I would say yes life exists eternally !!!

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Piscean I know many wont believe me but I have died for a matter of minutes and I have existed outside my body. This expirience makes my life very different from most. I don't see life the way most people do at all and I have no way to doubt that we live on. This body is for a temporary expirience. Develope charactor while you are here, it's what your gonna take with you.

Thanks for sharing your experience!!

It is exactly what I have feeling as put ion my previous post.