Selfcontrol

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Technosoul And you should continue to do what works best for you, I am not about trying to convert anyone to my way of life. To each his/her own. Now if you want we can do a debate about the topic of self-control in a new thread for that topic, it would be more interesting to share our insights in a posting that does not involved smoking cigarettes.

Leaving Smoking at the forum "Society & Rights" which during the conversation with Technosoul brought both us into more meaningful & philosophical topic "Selfcontrol"

Before I hear from others including Technosoul; let me analise this peculiar and astonishing word Selfcontrol !!

I would break this Selfcontrol into Self and Control.

Taking second word first being easier to understand. Control means "to check", "not allow" hinder, showing patience...and the like.

Coming to Self...Oh my God...very tough...I do not know anything what does Self means.... ?????

Is IT my physical body, physical senses, physical brain, physical mind, metaphysical body, metaphysical mind Or IT may be something behind all that long list just mentioned.

Not going futher deep, in simple words physical body is made active due to senses perception as a result mind is activated, finally Self behind the mind is affected.

In other words, physical senses are attracted to worldly comforts, physical body gets into action, mind feels impact affecting Self. If we call this a forward reaction, which can be written as:

Wordly (Dis)Comforts + Senses ------>Touches Mind------> affects Self

then, to my mind there is a reverse reaction also existing, which can be written as:

Self + Wordly wishes( from memory)----->touches Mind------> orders Senses--------> Senses work to affect Wordly sorroundings.

Now the brain churning point is that on careful study of various items mentioned above

What would Contol Self??? Or, Self would Control itself ???

Let me see what Technosoul & others think about Selfcontol, before I would elaborate.

[Milton Bradley]

Looks like a little elaboration may be required to if this thread is going to go any where.

[Jack]

I don't know that I'd analyze the idea that far. In my life, self control is taking responsibility for and control over those parts of myself that I can. I can control my actions, I can control my speech, I can control my temper...all those I have control over and am responsible for, good and bad.

I cannot always control my initial reactions to some ideas, but I can control my subsequent reaction. I cannot always control my sexual thoughts, but I can control my response to them. I also confess that I lack sufficient control of my mind so as to make it accept concepts that are perceived by my mind as irrational and nonsensical. I cannot by force of will make my mind accept things that are contrary to my experiences and education.

[Technosoul]

Self control in common understanding would mean that the person is attempting to control their behavior with their thoughts, sometimes called will power.

So we are looking at Will Power which uses thoughts to overcome other urges or desires, etc. which might arise out of a natural reaction to our environment ( other people and so forth ).

First the mind gets input via the senses.

That data is translated by our mind, partly by past experience collected by memory, but also by our attutudes and more importantly, by our self image called the ego.

The status of the ego relative to how we will react in response to the data input ( the other person or whatever ).

Will the ego have a defensive attitude, or a non-defensive attitude. That can make the difference in what our reaction and action will be in responding to situations involving other people.

The idea of self control would be to have control over how we respond to other people at or relative to a given situation.

Self control of self could suggest two selfhoods. Which idea generates some confusion for a reader of this debate. And the Dictionary is not all that useful when speaking about this.

We have the physical and thinking self. And we have something that is more metaphysical which I will simply term "awareness". That awareness is the "Self" behind the rest of self.

Awareness that is not the product of memory or external in-put is the self that control the self, effortlessly and without need of will power.

The spirit called awareness which operates out of an environment of calmness and stillness is what I would be talking about. That spirit however is also one with the self at that point when self control of the self becomes possible.

[Maryjane]

The surgeon told me it was a "miracle" my husband survived open heart surgery. He had given up hope and was getting ready to put him on life support until his family arrived. To me it's no miracle, I attribute it to the ultimate in self control, his will to survive.

[Strange Dreamer]

quite an interesting concept to examine here...
I'm not going to pretend to be intimately familiar with every detail of the mechanics that drives self awareness, self identity, or self control. I will however work with what I have percieved within myself.

To start with, I find the concept that there are 3 parts that make up a persons mental structure to be an acceptable model to speak from for the sake of discussion. A physical aspect that deal with the body in general and it's needs, an intelectual ascpet that deals with the nescecities of logic, planning, stradegy, memory, and ultimately decision making. And the third part that seems to hold sway over ethical and moral aspects of how one deals with the world.

I will be up front about the fact that I personally am not always in logical control of my actions. Sometimes despite the fact that I decide to do / not do something I find myself acting contrary to that decision. My internal perceptions give me the impression that on of the other parts of my 'being' has in fact trumped my logical self. Wether it is in pursuit of a something that will give some sort of physical stimulus, or as the result of a moral conflict, I have found myself on occation doing things that go contrary to my very firm choices. Also at times I have found myself doing things without the nescecity of higher thought at time, such as pulling up a blanket in the night, or even going into the bathroom. That may start another debate, but I am putting it here for reference.

To assume that self control is merely used to stop something or get something moving is a very narrow view. Self control seems to be to be not just a matter of going against impulses, but also guiding impulses into directed action that are already heavy with momentum or moving in a desired general direction. The means to do this are aquired in time by self awareness and learning what and where to place mental influence.

Since there is no physical reference for mental activity that would prove functional for such a process I find myself at times dealing with multi-dimensional (sometimes 3 dimentions aren't sufficent) imagery to give me reference, whereas other times it is simply a sense of pressures and counterpressures. The end result though is the fact that I am indeed having one part of my mental self working to manipulate another.

That is my assesment and opinion at this time, do with it what you will.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Strange Dreamer quite an interesting concept to examine here... I'm not going to pretend to be intimately familiar with every detail of the mechanics that drives self awareness, self identity, or self control. I will however work with what I have percieved within myself. To start with, I find the concept that there are 3 parts that make up a persons mental structure to be an acceptable model to speak from for the sake of discussion. A physical aspect that deal with the body in general and it's needs, an intelectual ascpet that deals with the nescecities of logic, planning, stradegy, memory, and ultimately decision making. And the third part that seems to hold sway over ethical and moral aspects of how one deals with the world. I will be up front about the fact that I personally am not always in logical control of my actions. Sometimes despite the fact that I decide to do / not do something I find myself acting contrary to that decision. My internal perceptions give me the impression that on of the other parts of my 'being' has in fact trumped my logical self. Wether it is in pursuit of a something that will give some sort of physical stimulus, or as the result of a moral conflict, I have found myself on occation doing things that go contrary to my very firm choices. Also at times I have found myself doing things without the nescecity of higher thought at time, such as pulling up a blanket in the night, or even going into the bathroom. That may start another debate, but I am putting it here for reference. To assume that self control is merely used to stop something or get something moving is a very narrow view. Self control seems to be to be not just a matter of going against impulses, but also guiding impulses into directed action that are already heavy with momentum or moving in a desired general direction. The means to do this are aquired in time by self awareness and learning what and where to place mental influence. Since there is no physical reference for mental activity that would prove functional for such a process I find myself at times dealing with multi-dimensional (sometimes 3 dimentions aren't sufficent) imagery to give me reference, whereas other times it is simply a sense of pressures and counterpressures. The end result though is the fact that I am indeed having one part of my mental self working to manipulate another. That is my assesment and opinion at this time, do with it what you will.

Those are some good observations and I would not object to the meaning you related. In my view I would not really advocate self control because our thinking self is pretty much in a state of mild confusion because life in not something learned from a book. Moral and ethical aspects must likewise be logical or else they will only add to our confusion as well as guide us away from the objective that I would advocate. Which is - dare to be aware.

And so I am interested in advocating awareness rather then self control as such control is normally based on some pre-learned idea about what is right or wrong, good or evil. It is already bias.

Once one can reach a state of awareness that wishes to be honest then one can let go and allow that awereness to guide or control us, rather then our ego or some dogmatic philosophy found in a book.

Awareness is simply for the purpose of gaining more understanding, watching and taking note of what happens. As our understanding grows out of awareness we then have a good foundation to act or speak out of.
If we reject the direction that awereness would suggest then make things worse for someone else or for our self, because we have accepted a blinded way of life. In a state of awareness we act not with an attitude of controlling our self but in a way that is totally effortless, because we have pre-selected the notion of doing what will give us peace of mind in the long run, rather then getting caught up with internal conflicts and/or confusion. Of course awareness would employ some aspects of memory and logical planning. For example we would see ahead of the game and what our actions would cause if we acted in a way that is not logically in the best interests of everyone.

In my view awareness goes hand in hand with calmness and a process that is always reflecting inwardly for guidance. Now you can still dance to loud music and be very active while having that one "space" inside that remains aware and calm, and still remain connected. While understanding that certain emotions can knock us out of the calm place, but once we are aware of the problem then such emotions can no longer control us because our foreknowledge of that process would make it of non-affect.

So we just live life while remaining aware of everything so that understanding and logic is the servent of that awakening. This is a process of growing and developement also, and so at first our attention might wander back and forth until we finally get into the swing of it.

To repeat my bottom line: Dare to be Aware. and the rest will just follow in a natural process of unfoldment from within.

Also, I would suggest that our attempt to control what we wish to be aware of is what prevents us form attaining true understanding which then subjects us to limitations relative to mental evolution.

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Technosoul Also, I would suggest that our attempt to control what we wish to be aware of is what prevents us form attaining true understanding which then subjects us to limitations relative to mental evolution.

Control, awareness, self, emotions, memory, actions; right or wrong...everything very confusing

But...PO question who controls whom ???

I do not think that question is attempted as yet by anyone!!

Yes, Jack (former Ish) says simply that he controls his body through mind. HE means his SELF. But at times, situation around is sensed by physical body !! Say eyes see something appealing or ears hear something unpleasant which is grasped by brain and or mind and as a result self gets agitated. This I feel is some reversible reaction !!! But ultimately self is controlling everything including Self !!! ???

[Technosoul]

Under our social behaviorism as pack animals it is society that controls society and the collective expects each individual to be responsible enough to control their self so that they are in conformity with so-called "universal standards" that society has adopted as their self-evident truism.

Those who control your eyes control you. They show you what to see and hear, so that you can assume that group idenity.

[Kuldeep]

@Technosoul

I read your this statement thrice but, meaning seems to be more hidden.

Universal standards, the eternal properties existing around are so attractive to the self that it falls prey to be un-separable part of whole nature. Therefore, the absolute self control is to break this pain giving attractiveness (at times, not always) and remain independant of universal attachments and in a stage of perfect bliss.

In conclusion, I would say in real self control, Self controls his own Self. However for the Self, it is absolutely important to co-operate with the world as an instrument without getting attached to it at all.

[Technosoul]

Elaborate with a few examples of what you would view as "exsisting eternal properties".

In you view is attaction the same thing as a sin?

Is total bliss the main objective of your belief system, is bliss attractive and would sex with another person be a false kind of bliss that can prevent someone from finding true bliss?

[Kuldeep]

A host of questions !! Let me pick one by one as they are put.

Quote by: Technosoul Elaborate with a few examples of what you would view as "exsisting eternal properties".

Existing eternal pproperties:

1. Your self-ego that means your
feeling you are something.

2. Sense of Individual existence similar as 1 exists due
to individual metaphysical mind.

3. Attachment of inner self to physical body and due to memory to out side world viz sense of love, hatred, greed, sense of your own as relatives, parents, wife, children....everything you can count and watch in the society is due to that eternal property of attraction.

4. In fact, once you attaain a physical body and anything related to it are eternal properties only which you get attached everytime you getr a fresh body. The only problem is you do not remember the past. This too is necessary and eternal property. Had it not been there ! There would be have total confusion in the world. Imagine everybody remembering his 1000 lives. All would have gone insane.

In you view is attraction the same thing as a sin?

No, Attraction is the property of Individual metaphysical mind, which acts as a cover of the Self . This attraction due to metaphysical mind makes universal self as Individual self. Later once Individual self due to property of attraction attains the physical body, starts ignorantly committing all sorts of actions (good and bad both) to fulfill the desires of metaphysical mind. These actions are delivering good and bad reactions. Yes, bad actions could be termed as sins. But then, yes attraction is the cause of making us as we are at present.

Is total bliss the main objective of your belief system?

Yes, it is ! Provided one is logical in understanding what total or true bliss means. To my understanding, a total or true bliss is that bliss, which is eternal and is independent of time.

Is bliss attractive and would sex with another person be a false kind of bliss that can prevent someone from finding true bliss?

You are the best judge to decide what is true bliss as defined by me above. Sex, for example you have asked if that is a false bliss. Anything, which is temporary is false. But if you take it based on the physical & metaphysical mind, it is true but not absolute true bliss, which ought to be permanent.

Sexual Bliss can never prevent to find true bliss as long one is aware where lies the true bliss. Once one finds true bliss, he automatically realizes sexual and any other worldly bliss, all of which are temporary ones are nothing as compared to ultimate everlasting bliss. That everlasting bliss is attainable only on coming out of the metaphysical mind cover, which has made Universal Self (Infinite Universal Consciousness) a limited one as Individual Self (Individual Consciousness.)

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Kuldeep A host of questions !! Let me pick one by one as they are put. Existing eternal pproperties: 1. Your self-ego that means your feeling you are something. 2. Sense of Individual existence similar as 1 exists due to individual metaphysical mind. 3. Attachment of inner self to physical body and due to memory to out side world viz sense of love, hatred, greed, sense of your own as relatives, parents, wife, children....everything you can count and watch in the society is due to that eternal property of attraction. 4. In fact, once you attaain a physical body and anything related to it are eternal properties only which you get attached everytime you getr a fresh body. The only problem is you do not remember the past. This too is necessary and eternal property. Had it not been there ! There would be have total confusion in the world. Imagine everybody remembering his 1000 lives. All would have gone insane. No, Attraction is the property of Individual metaphysical mind, which acts as a cover of the Self . This attraction due to metaphysical mind makes universal self as Individual self. Later once Individual self due to property of attraction attains the physical body, starts ignorantly committing all sorts of actions (good and bad both) to fulfill the desires of metaphysical mind. These actions are delivering good and bad reactions. Yes, bad actions could be termed as sins. But then, yes attraction is the cause of making us as we are at present. Yes, it is ! Provided one is logical in understanding what total or true bliss means. To my understanding, a total or true bliss is that bliss, which is eternal and is independent of time. You are the best judge to decide what is true bliss as defined by me above. Sex, for example you have asked if that is a false bliss. Anything, which is temporary is false. But if you take it based on the physical & metaphysical mind, it is true but not absolute true bliss, which ought to be permanent. Sexual Bliss can never prevent to find true bliss as long one is aware where lies the true bliss. Once one finds true bliss, he automatically realizes sexual and any other worldly bliss, all of which are temporary ones are nothing as compared to ultimate everlasting bliss. That everlasting bliss is attainable only on coming out of the metaphysical mind cover, which has made Universal Self (Infinite Universal Consciousness) a limited one as Individual Self (Individual Consciousness.)

Okay, that is a little bit different then the activity of attempted self control. You are talking about reincarnation and attempted karma control so that the true self can jump out of the circular momentum of time and space into another more perfected dimensional status.

Which boils down to the idea that God is playing hide and seek with His Self. That idea is also Christain and not just from the teachings in India and Tibet. As related as one of the four attitudes of the cross, the non-attachment philosophy so indicated in the term "I command my spirit into your hands" (into the hands of the Infinite Universal Consciousness ... Self of All-ness). or " let go and let God" attitude.

The bliss is that eternal moment in which one can comprehend "it is all alright".