Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

**Jack** · Apr 24, 2008, 11:22 pm

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First off, god did not create sin, a nasty trickster named lucifer did.

So something exists that wasn't created by your god? God didn't create Lucifer? Does the Bible indicate Lucifer always co-existed with god?

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God did not, however, tell his people to do the crusades

And we know this how? According to Christianity, that is. We non-believers have no reason to believe a god ordered the Crusades.

**Jack** · Apr 24, 2008, 11:25 pm

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my religion says that I won't

How do you address the point that other's religions say you will because you aren't a part of their group? All of you believe your interpretation is the only right one. What, beyond your own conviction, convinces you your belief is right and all those others are wrong?

Maryjane · Apr 24, 2008, 11:30 pm

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Quote by: christianmathew

I don't make a point to study misguided branches of christianity, so I didn't recognize that canons=catholics. God doesn't have different rules, its just that people interpret them differently. That is why they are so misguided.

Hold up....

How do you "know" they are the misguided ones?

You know..I don't even care anymore at this point. I'm going to be really amused when this thingy raptue happens and you all duke it out amongst yourselves over who has the true god.

christianmathew · Apr 25, 2008, 12:28 am

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So something exists that wasn't created by your god? God didn't create Lucifer? Does the Bible indicate Lucifer always co-existed with god?

Yes, something exists that wasn't created by God. Everything is created indirectly by him, but Lucifer and man can create things on their own using free will. God did create Lucifer, but that fallen angel made his own decisions, and wrongly. No, he didn't always coexist with God because he didn't always exist.

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And we know this how? According to Christianity, that is. We non-believers have no reason to believe a god ordered the Crusades.

Because it was wrong, disgusting, and totally selfish, unlike what god would have wanted. So you non believers can think something and I can't think that something similar?

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How do you address the point that other's religions say you will because you aren't a part of their group? All of you believe your interpretation is the only right one. What, beyond your own conviction, convinces you your belief is right and all those others are wrong?

My faith is what makes me believe in my religion, and not in others. Nothing more, nothing less. I just have to stick with my conviction
I guess.

christianmathew · Apr 25, 2008, 12:34 am

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How do you "know" they are the misguided ones?

Besides my faith, not much. I could say that because they are changing the bible to fit themselves, instead of taking it as it says, they are misguided. I could say that because they require so much more to be christian than the bible says they are misguided. But in the end, it essentially comes down to the christian dilemna I believe in something because of my faith, and you believe in something because of your reason. Anything you say I can say "I don't believe because of my faith" and anything I say you can say "science tells me otherwise." It is a neverending problem.

christianmathew · Apr 25, 2008, 12:36 am

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You know..I don't even care anymore at this point. I'm going to be really amused when this thingy raptue happens and you all duke it out amongst yourselves over who has the true god.

Although hilarious, you are somewhat off. If the rapture does occur, there wil be no fighting over the true god. We will all find out in an instant, because the christians that believe in the true god will ascend into heaven and the ones who don't believe in the true god will be left behind to suffer the consequences.

**Jack** · Apr 25, 2008, 12:43 am

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No, he didn't always coexist with God because he didn't always exist.

Did he create himself?

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Because it was wrong, disgusting, and totally selfish, unlike what god would have wanted.

I find the Crusades quite consistent with many of the events portrayed in the Old Testament.

Maryjane · Apr 25, 2008, 12:53 am

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anything I say you can say "science tells me otherwise."

I think you have me confused with someone else.

christianmathew · Apr 25, 2008, 01:22 am

Jack,
God created Lucifer, but God did not create himself, he just was, if that is what you were wondering. The crusade is relatively consistent, except the Old Testament was of God's will.

Maryjane, that specific phrase was about the christian dilemna, not about you or anyone in particular.

Captain Cardio · Apr 25, 2008, 01:44 am

Couple questions for christianmathew,

Do you believe god has free will?

Do you believe god can see into the future perfectly?

christianmathew · Apr 25, 2008, 01:49 am

Yes I believe God has free will, who would be conrolling God?

Yes I believe he can see into the future perfectly, which is why he gives a few men in the bible such nice prophecies. However, he will not change the present or the future, since he has given us free will.

Captain Cardio · Apr 25, 2008, 01:51 am

Do we agree that If god can see into the future, that means his decisions are predetermined?

Captain Cardio · Apr 25, 2008, 02:09 am

Well I've got to take off, but my point as you may have gathered, is that god is usually described by christians as both having freewill, and being omnipotent, which means he can predict the future perfectly.

I would hope that we could reasonably agree that this is a logical contradiction.

At the same time, these are both things most Christians accept.

I'm sure you could come up with some sort of way to rationalize this contradiction, but we could probably agree that most christians do not really explore this free will/omnipotence contradiction.

This would be evidence of an absence of critical thought in the Christian community. Now whether or not God exists, does it say anything at all, that most people who subscribe to Christianity, do not involve themselves in this basic critical thinking?

christianmathew · Apr 25, 2008, 02:24 am

To answer your question Captain Cardio,
I do believe God can see into the future, but I don't believe his decisions are predetermined, because of free will, which you seem to think contradicts.

This may be a logical contradiction for some, but for me I believe that it is not a contradiction. You are right that most christians just accept this, and don't question it, but I do believe that christians think for themselves, since they are able to choose christianity.

WakeTFU · Apr 25, 2008, 02:35 am

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Quote by: Voluntary

Show me the evidence.

I said I'm sure you can find reason's for his existence, I didn't say I had evidence.

I'm glad I cleared that up...

**Jack** · Apr 25, 2008, 02:38 am

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God created Lucifer

Lucifer created sin.
Ergo, god created sin.

christianmathew · Apr 25, 2008, 03:09 am

God did indirectly. Lucifer chose to create sin, God simply didn't interfere. If you want to look at it that way, who am I to stop you?

**Matt W** · Apr 25, 2008, 05:08 am

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Quote by: christianmathew

I may evangelize, or tell aethists about hell, but I am spreading my opinions. If you don't want me to, then too bad. If you really are getting offended, maybe I won't post on this topic. You are the authority, after all. Not!

I've already mentioned this once, but this forum is not for preaching. It's a debate board. I suggest you remember the difference.

DO NOT RESPOND IN THIS THREAD TO THE PRECEDING MESSAGE.
Please contact a member of the staff privately if you have any questions.

suijurisfreeman · Apr 25, 2008, 07:15 am

Doesn't Isaiah 45 say something about God creating both good and evil?

JaneDoe321 · Apr 25, 2008, 07:24 am

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Quote by: christianmathew

I could say that because they are changing the bible to fit themselves, instead of taking it as it says, they are misguided.

You have the original copy of the Bible?

If not, you're using a copy that was ALSO changed to fit the uses of a particular group of people and is thus also biased automatically.

Apr 25, 2008, 01:22 am	#69 (permalink) (top)
christianmathew caring christian Location: right here Posts: 177	Jack, God created Lucifer, but God did not create himself, he just was, if that is what you were wondering. The crusade is relatively consistent, except the Old Testament was of God's will. Maryjane, that specific phrase was about the christian dilemna, not about you or anyone in particular. I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. I gave in, and admitted that God was God. C. S. Lewis

Apr 25, 2008, 01:49 am	#71 (permalink) (top)
christianmathew caring christian Location: right here Posts: 177	Yes I believe God has free will, who would be conrolling God? Yes I believe he can see into the future perfectly, which is why he gives a few men in the bible such nice prophecies. However, he will not change the present or the future, since he has given us free will. I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. I gave in, and admitted that God was God. C. S. Lewis

Apr 25, 2008, 02:24 am	#74 (permalink) (top)
christianmathew caring christian Location: right here Posts: 177	To answer your question Captain Cardio, I do believe God can see into the future, but I don't believe his decisions are predetermined, because of free will, which you seem to think contradicts. This may be a logical contradiction for some, but for me I believe that it is not a contradiction. You are right that most christians just accept this, and don't question it, but I do believe that christians think for themselves, since they are able to choose christianity. I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. I gave in, and admitted that God was God. C. S. Lewis

Apr 25, 2008, 03:09 am	#77 (permalink) (top)
christianmathew caring christian Location: right here Posts: 177	God did indirectly. Lucifer chose to create sin, God simply didn't interfere. If you want to look at it that way, who am I to stop you? I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. I gave in, and admitted that God was God. C. S. Lewis

Apr 25, 2008, 07:15 am	#79 (permalink) (top)
suijurisfreeman Molten Ash Posts: 85	Doesn't Isaiah 45 say something about God creating both good and evil? I am a free Human Being and I have the right to ignore the State. I know my rights, I declare my rights, I exercise my rights and I damn well will defend my rights! Freedom is contagious, knowledge is the source of infection. Infect knowledge! Long live individualist-anarchism!

Apr 25, 2008, 01:44 am	#70 (permalink) (top)
Captain Cardio Uncomfortable Mind Posts: 357	Couple questions for christianmathew, Do you believe god has free will? Do you believe god can see into the future perfectly?

Apr 25, 2008, 01:51 am	#72 (permalink) (top)
Captain Cardio Uncomfortable Mind Posts: 357	Do we agree that If god can see into the future, that means his decisions are predetermined?

Apr 25, 2008, 02:09 am	#73 (permalink) (top)
Captain Cardio Uncomfortable Mind Posts: 357	Well I've got to take off, but my point as you may have gathered, is that god is usually described by christians as both having freewill, and being omnipotent, which means he can predict the future perfectly. I would hope that we could reasonably agree that this is a logical contradiction. At the same time, these are both things most Christians accept. I'm sure you could come up with some sort of way to rationalize this contradiction, but we could probably agree that most christians do not really explore this free will/omnipotence contradiction. This would be evidence of an absence of critical thought in the Christian community. Now whether or not God exists, does it say anything at all, that most people who subscribe to Christianity, do not involve themselves in this basic critical thinking?