christianity vs. Aethism

[christianmathew]

Sonart,

No, you don't... you came here to evangelize. Hardly the Christian thing to do, mathew... start off a new thread with a lie.

Well sonart, can you read minds or something? no seriously, flush my opinions, go throw my facts down a hole. I came here to learn what other people think, and then to say what I believe.

So here it is... the ultimatum. Mathew, I have a little test I'd like you to take, but before I get to that, let me ask you. Is God the creator of all things, all knowing and all powerful? Is everything that happens in the universe the will of God? And if so, isn't every choice we make also God's will? Therefore it obviously can't be our will, now, can it? Nah... I don't believe in God and I'm not going to Hell. Hey, God works in mysterious ways, right? If you believe in Hell, you're welcome to it.

Dear me, are you serious? Yes, God is the creator of all things, all knowing and all powerful. But even though he knows everything, and has the power to do anything, the things that happen are not of his will, but mans. Look at the biblical story of adam and eve. Why would he let us take the apple if he knew we were going to, and not stop us? He gives us free will, so we can make our own decisions. It is not all his will, but our will. It's your choice not to believe in christianity. I won't make that choice for you.

[christianmathew]

As to your quiz,
THe answer is so simple and obvious in my mind and so simple and obvious in your mind, I don't get why you asked it.

Of course you would expect me to say she wil go to hell, because I am a christian and she's buddhist. Of course you would disagree, because you don't believe in hell.

Now you think you have every scenario wrapped up in this story. But I'll spring an old rule on you. Children do not go to hell, it is deemed that they are not mature enough to make their own decisions. So no, she won't go to hell.

[Jack]

But I'll spring an old rule on you. Children do not go to hell, it is deemed that they are not mature enough to make their own decisions.

Whose rule is that, who "deemed" that? If that's a general Christian rule, why are Children baptized and/or sent to Bible school?

[Maryjane]

Exactly Jack...

Canon law dictates:

Can. 867 §1. Parents are obliged to take care that infants are baptized in the first few weeks; as soon as possible after the birth or even before it, they are to go to the pastor to request the sacrament for their child and to be prepared properly for it. §2. An infant in danger of death is to be baptized without delay.

(bolding mine)

Code of Canon Law - IntraText

You know, this makes no sense. Doesn't god have the power to send them to heaven in the first place? Aren't all lives and deaths already written in his book? Is this like some weird kind of insurance policy? The benefit being to comfort the living if and when a child dies? Isn't god the one taking that life in the first place?

[Winter wind]

Quote by: Zhavric Well, considering the bible was completely the invention of bronze age sociopaths, it doesn't really matter.

It does matter. They don't pretend to know how old the earth is. Ergo, it's up to humans to find this out.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: christianmathew Well sonart, can you read minds or something? no seriously, flush my opinions, go throw my facts down a hole. I came here to learn what other people think, and then to say what I believe.

Sorry to disagree with you, mathew, but many of us here have been doing this for years and years, and we didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday.

When you say things like, "Any non believer can get this truth, all they have to do is believe in God. I will tell you this truth if you want me to, complete with scripture.", it's pretty clear that's what you were hoping for in the first place. The opportunity to convert someone.

And when you blithely condemn all atheists to the agonies of Hell for all eternity, simply for not believing what you do, it's equally clear that you're not the least bit interested in what other people think. How could you be, if you've already condemned us unconditionally for what we think? After all, there have been many devout Christians on this board who do NOT share your belief in unconditional damnation for folks who otherwise live perfectly decent lives.

Nah, we can smell BS a mile away here, mathew, and you're full of it.

Quote by: christianmathew Now you think you have every scenario wrapped up in this story. But I'll spring an old rule on you. Children do not go to hell, it is deemed that they are not mature enough to make their own decisions. So no, she won't go to hell.

Except she's not a child, mathew. She's 13. That's the average age at which girls exit puberty and become what's considered young adults, physiologically capable of bearing children, which they often do in some cultures.

Care to try again? How about if she were 14? That's the age of consent in many countries.

Quote by: christianmathew He gives us free will, so we can make our own decisions. It is not all his will, but our will. It's your choice not to believe in christianity.

I see. And now that I've exercised that will -- along with the girl in the story -- God intends to punish us in the most cruel, vicious, brutal way possible for using the very minds and will He gave us, Particularly among those in foreign lands who consciously choose to honor their father and mother by remaining faithful to the non-Christian beliefs of their families and communities.

Your God seems to be quite the nasty trickster.

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[christianmathew]

Whose rule is that, who "deemed" that? If that's a general Christian rule, why are Children baptized and/or sent to Bible school?

Well, I could say that god deemed that, which might get complicated, or I could just say that is what it says in the bible. Either one is true.

I would not say that it is a general christian rule, beccause there are so many different branches. Many catholics believe in baptisement, where as the non-denominational christian like me, don't. Children go to bible school so that they can learn about God, and so that it will be easier for them to make the right decisions later on in life.

As I just said, Maryjane, (though I don't know how you found such interesting and untrue rules), different braches of christianity believe different things. So your canons may have different rules than us non-denominiationals.

You know, this makes no sense. Doesn't god have the power to send them to heaven in the first place? Aren't all lives and deaths already written in his book? Is this like some weird kind of insurance policy? The benefit being to comfort the living if and when a child dies? Isn't god the one taking that life in the first place?

Also, God does have the power to send them to heaven, but that would be denying us our free will. No, it's not some insurance policy, its because they aren't mature enough to make their own decisions. All life's and death's are written in his book, as you say, but we have the freedom to change our future, and even if he knows what we will do, he will not make us do anything, so we have free will.

[christianmathew]

Sorry to disagree with you, mathew, but many of us here have been doing this for years and years, and we didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday. When you say things like, "Any non believer can get this truth, all they have to do is believe in God. I will tell you this truth if you want me to, complete with scripture.", it's pretty clear that's what you were hoping for in the first place. The opportunity to convert someone. And when you blithely condemn all atheists to the agonies of Hell for all eternity, simply for not believing what you do, it's equally clear that you're not the least bit interested in what other people think. How could you be, if you've already condemned us unconditionally for what we think? After all, there have been many devout Christians on this board who do NOT share your belief in unconditional damnation for folks who otherwise live perfectly decent lives. Nah, we can smell BS a mile away here, mathew, and you're full of it.

Oh no! Someone thinks they have finally unraveled the mind of the great christianmathew! I may not have been doing this for as long as you, but that doesn't mean I can't debate.

I may evangelize, or tell aethists about hell, but I am spreading my opinions. If you don't want me to, then too bad. If you really are getting offended, maybe I won't post on this topic. You are the authority, after all. Not!

[christianmathew]

Except she's not a child, mathew. She's 13. That's the average age at which girls exit puberty and become what's considered young adults, physiologically capable of bearing children, which they often do in some cultures. Care to try again? How about if she were 14? That's the age of consent in many countries.

I may have been different than you, but I didn't exactly make the smartest decisions during puberty and while I was a teenager. I may have thought of myself as mature, and I may have known a lot more about life than I did when I was a child, but I sure was stupid because of those things called hormones. So maybe this girl was different, how would I know, I never met her? Maybe she was mature enough, but that is not for you or I to decide, but that is between her and God. Because if she was, I guess she would go to hell. But my guess is she wasn't mature enough to make her own decision about god.

[christianmathew]

I see. And now that I've exercised that will -- along with the girl in the story -- God intends to punish us in the most cruel, vicious, brutal way possible for using the very minds and will He gave us, Particularly among those in foreign lands who consciously choose to honor their father and mother by remaining faithful to the non-Christian beliefs of their families and communities. Your God seems to be quite the nasty trickster.

I personally would not consider him a "nasty triskster" so much as a guy who gives everyone a chance, and lets them make their own choice. Remember, you may follow his laws (coicidentally or not), but we all have sinned so we need his grace and forgiveness to get into heaven. So you may go to that horrible place, hell. (Matt w, I'm not threatening him, please don't delete my post!)

[Maryjane]

As I just said, Maryjane, (though I don't know how you found such interesting and untrue rules), different braches of christianity believe different things. So your canons may have different rules than us non-denominiationals.

You never heard of the CATHOLIC church?

So your god has different rules for everyone? Interesting...another escape hatch.

[JaneDoe321]

Quote by: christianmathew I personally would not consider him a "nasty triskster" so much as a guy who gives everyone a chance, and lets them make their own choice. Remember, you may follow his laws (coicidentally or not), but we all have sinned so we need his grace and forgiveness to get into heaven. So you may go to that horrible place, hell. (Matt w, I'm not threatening him, please don't delete my post!)

But... the only reason we're sinning in the first place is that 1. god created this stuff called "sin" and then made it all the fun stuff and 2. god gave us free will.

I encourage my kids to think for themselves. However, I also don't leave dangerous stuff where they can get to it until they're old enough to know better, and I *certainly* don't go around making all the dangerous stuff *HORRIBLY* appealing..

[Jack]

I personally would not consider him a "nasty triskster" so much as a guy who gives everyone a chance, and lets them make their own choice.

Are we talking about the same god? The one who, in the O.T. killed innocent women and children just to make a point to one guy? The same god who has no problem with commanding his followers to kill in his name? The same god who condemns the sinful to hell even though if sin existed it would have to be a creation of the same god?

I'd call him a lot more than a trickster. Inhumane and barbaric spring to mind. That's if he were real. Fortunately, gods are just the products of some very imaginative minds.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: christianmathew I may evangelize, or tell aethists about hell, but I am spreading my opinions. If you don't want me to, then too bad. If you really are getting offended, maybe I won't post on this topic. You are the authority, after all.

Fair enough, mathew. Have at it. Just a little advance warning, however. If you think that quoting the Bible is going to help you make your case, be prepared to be met with a lot of blank stares. If atheists don't believe in God, then we obviously don't believe that an anthology of chronicles written 2,000 years ago is the word of God. It contains some nice stories and all, but don't expect atheists to be any more impressed with carefully selected quotes than you would be if we quoted Wodan's impressions of Valhalla or Mother Goose to you.

Quote by: christianmathew So maybe this girl was different, how would I know, I never met her? Maybe she was mature enough, but that is not for you or I to decide, but that is between her and God. Because if she was, I guess she would go to hell. But my guess is she wasn't mature enough to make her own decision about god.

Well actually it is for me to decide, since I created the story, and yes, this is a precocious 13/14 year old, kind, sweet and completely innocent, as well as mature and wise beyond her years, as some young people are. And listening to the missionary, she understood what he was saying, understood the parables, and understood the significance of Christ's resurrection. Yet she chose to remain faithful to the religion of her parents, grandparents, friends and community.

And for which you say she deserves to suffer in horrifying agony for all eternity.

Dood, you have a cruel, vindictive and evil God, which I want nothing to do with. But thanks all the same.

Quote by: christianmathew So you may go to that horrible place, hell. (Matt w, I'm not threatening him, please don't delete my post!)

Don't worry about it, mathew. The fact is, we're ALL going to Hell, even you. Because somewhere there's a religion other than yours that's condemned you to Hell for not accepting their belief.

"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -- Stephen F Roberts

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[christianmathew]

You never heard of the CATHOLIC church? So your god has different rules for everyone? Interesting...another escape hatch.

I don't make a point to study misguided branches of christianity, so I didn't recognize that canons=catholics. God doesn't have different rules, its just that people interpret them differently. That is why they are so misguided.

[christianmathew]

But... the only reason we're sinning in the first place is that 1. god created this stuff called "sin" and then made it all the fun stuff and 2. god gave us free will. I encourage my kids to think for themselves. However, I also don't leave dangerous stuff where they can get to it until they're old enough to know better, and I *certainly* don't go around making all the dangerous stuff *HORRIBLY* appealing..

First off, god did not create sin, a nasty trickster named lucifer did. Second, God gave us free will because he wanted us to be able to choose, and many have chosen to live apart from him.

God doesn't make it appealing. Lucifer does. And maybe this isn't true with your kids, but I have found that the things I am not supposed to have or do are most apealing.

[christianmathew]

Are we talking about the same god? The one who, in the O.T. killed innocent women and children just to make a point to one guy? The same god who has no problem with commanding his followers to kill in his name? The same god who condemns the sinful to hell even though if sin existed it would have to be a creation of the same god? I'd call him a lot more than a trickster. Inhumane and barbaric spring to mind. That's if he were real. Fortunately, gods are just the products of some very imaginative minds.

Yes, we are talking about the same god. He did kill innocent women and children, multiple times, to the egyptians, to Job, and a few others. God did not, however, tell his people to do the crusades, though he has told them to kill people before. He did not create sin, and he does have a problem with sending people to hell: even though he loves them and wants them to be saved, they still keep disobeying his laws!

He is not a trickster, you are just slightly warping his ideas. But then again, you don't believe in gods, so you think your covered.

[JaneDoe321]

If he *really* wants them to be saved, he can simply rewrite the code. mean, he's all powerful right?

Oh, right, he likes it better this way.

[christianmathew]

Sonart,
I may quote the bible from time to time, but I don't expect it to impress you.

I may have a cruel god in your eyes, but he is kind and loving in my eyes. He gives us all a chance, even your 13 year old girl, doesn't he?

You and others may disagree, but I don't think I'm going to hell because my religion says that I won't as long as I love Jesus and follow certain rules. Even your budhist girl is better off than you, because at least she has a religion, and so she believes she is safe from hell.

[christianmathew]

If he *really* wants them to be saved, he can simply rewrite the code. mean, he's all powerful right? Oh, right, he likes it better this way.

Yep, he believes in free will. He can possibly rewrite some code you are reffering to, but he won't.