a brief opinion of christianity in general

[christianmathew]

sorry about any "grief" I caused anyone earlier.

On a new topic, What is your quick opinion of christianity?
Ramble, write random stuff, anything that in some way has to do with your opinion of christianity.

This out to be fun.

[gela]

gives people a reason to be good, it helps ease the suffering of the death of a loved one, encourages optimism

It also divides people, encourages animal cruelty and environmental apathy (because apparently earth is here for humans, and animals don't have souls), dependence on something other then yourself is bad

[nerdvincent]

Like every organized religions, it means disabling critical thinking and be happily blind.
Another point anoying me is that it claims to have a copyright on morality and values, which is wholefully stupid.

[Jack]

I suspect all humans need some way to help them make sense of those things in life which seem mysterious, unfair, illogical, coincidental and just plain odd. Christianity, like all religions, is just a more formal, codified attempt to make sense of the parts of life that defy easy explanation.

Unlike private explanations, religions also involve forming a community of like-minded individuals. The communities of believers add a dimension that individual explanations often lack.

The weak point of religions are their teachings that they posses an "ultimate truth" applicable to everyone everywhere. This puts them at odds with each other as well as non-believers.

Christianity, like Islam, has become as much a political force as it is a religion. This presents complications for those who live in countries where these faiths are accepted by the majority of the citizens but not unanimously by all citizens. Majority rule can become rule by force, and the force Christians are exercising is the force of law. I do not welcome America becoming a theocratic state. I think it would be detrimental to the citizens and disastrous for the country.

I don't care what people believe in the context of their own lives any more than I care what they do in bed. I do not, though, think that Christianity should become the default religion of America any more than I think heterosexuality should be mandated for all our citizens.

[tommy5x]

The moral grounding of Western society and law, whilst also being one of the main causes for a lack of social cohesion. Especially in 'bible belt' USA, where the majorty of 'good' Christians take the King James bibile as law, in a literalistic sense, thus, by lack of perfect transliteration from Hebrew and Greek undermining their own perceptions of Christianity and their place in the religion.

I'm sure this is true of other religions elsewhere.

[another day]

My opinion is that few christians place enough stock in the actual words and teachings of Jesus, and that if they made his teachings and words the core tenets above all else then they would be a much more peaceful and tolerant, and advanced religion.

But really, even if a religion is extremely good, human nature dictates only the people who are ALREADY GOOD will do that goodness justice. The lesser people will pick and choose what they find suits their agenda best and make that "the religion". Really religion does not create the man at all, it does not define him. He defines the way he perceives his religion. One man can be a christian and be peaceful, kind, and generous, one man can be a christian and be bigoted, mean-spirited, spiteful, hateful, and war-like. Is either the "true christian"? You could defend either one using evidence from the bible and have a pretty good case either way.

I think people need to shun scriptural religion and then when their beliefs are layed bare without the cloak of dogmatic jibberish, people will see them for what they really are - either peaceful loving people, or hateful bigoted creeps.

[loser]

It's not animal cruelty to harvest animals for food anymore than it is vegetable cruelty to harvest vegetables for food. Why are animals treated with so much more love and respect than vegetables? Is a puppy cuter than a turnip? Do we treat the better looking and cuter better than we do the ugly and unappealing? Is that why we have beauty contests instead of ugly contests?

It's this kind of favoritism that makes mankind incapable of making just and fair judgments. I kick a dog and I am a monster. I swat a fly (or squash a roach) and I am a hero. Justify this, please.

As far as "environmental apathy", that's NOT a Christian tenet. God's first commandment to man was to "...replenish the earth...". That's the EXACT OPPOSITE of apathy. Replenish means to nourish or fill or make complete again. See how screwed up man's understanding is?

Divides people? If ALL people were Christian (and knew what that meant), we would have a BROTHERHOOD OF MAN, all for one, and one for all! What divides people is (unyielding) people. It's not what Jesus taught (division).

"dependence on something other then yourself is bad"

That, too, is not Christianity. Christianity is not about being served, it's about serving others. Christianity is not about what God can do for you (in the here and now) but what you can do for God (in the form of doing for others). Notice:

Mat 20:25 But Jesus called the disciples together and said: You know that foreign rulers like to order their people around. And their great leaders have full power over everyone they rule.
Mat 20:26 But don't act like them. If you want to be great, you must be the servant of all the others.
Mat 20:27 And if you want to be first, you must be the slave of the rest.


After answering to Gela's remarks, do I need say more about what I think about Christianity?

It's as misunderstood as God.

[another day]

Divides people? If ALL people were Christian (and knew what that meant), we would have a BROTHERHOOD OF MAN, all for one, and one for all! What divides people is (unyielding) people. It's not what Jesus taught (division).

Hahaha... remind me again, how many different sects of christianity are there again? Even if everyone was Christian, you would have people disagreeing and fighting wars over what was the proper way to be Christian... protestant vs. catholic anyone? What's going on in Iraq? the Sunnis and shites, sects of islam are fighting each other. They are all "muslim", yet definitly no brotherhood of man there.

There are inherent divisions among men, and it has nothing to do with religion. That is just window dressing for a bigger division of values. One man likes the value of peace, forgiveness, meekness, one man likes the value of crusading and judging and imposing. You can see these divisions in all religions, from christianity to islam, because they have nothing to do with the religions themselves and everything to do with the individual goodness or badness of a man, something which religion does nothing to change.

Even if we were all atheist we would have the same problems. There will never be a unity of man because it is not productive in the system of nature.

[loser]

Like every organized religions, it means disabling critical thinking and be happily blind.

No, quite the contrary. Christianity requires extremely critical thinking, the blind are rarely ever happy.

Another point anoying me is that it claims to have a copyright on morality and values, which is wholefully stupid.

It's humanism that makes that claim. The Christian religion says that morality and your values are written in your heart, that no laws written in stone can guide you how to live. It says that no one can tell you what is right and wrong, that understanding is in your conscience (your own heart and mind and soul). It all comes from within.

I suspect all humans need some way to help them make sense of those things in life which seem mysterious, unfair, illogical, coincidental and just plain odd.

If not, snake-oil salesmen like Darwin couldn't foist their perversions upon unsuspecting men.

Christianity, like all religions, is just a more formal, codified attempt to make sense of the parts of life that defy easy explanation.

Actually, it's the instruction manual for mankind. As incredulous as it seems, it explains exactly what God's intentions are and it explains all of the craziness that is our lives. It's not some book that some questioning human concocted. It's an account of humanity's encounter with his ET Creator.

Unlike private explanations, religions also involve forming a community of like-minded individuals. The communities of believers add a dimension that individual explanations often lack.

Communities are NOT religious-dependent and are rarely like-minded. What forms communities are common needs. Individuality is present in all communities, religious or otherwise. Nevertheless, like-minded people do tend to form groups, as in birds of a feather.

The weak point of religions are their teachings that they posses an "ultimate truth" applicable to everyone everywhere. This puts them at odds with each other as well as non-believers.

Substitute the word 'humans' (or even scientists or evolutionists or any other 'community' word) for 'religions' in your sentence and see how aptly it fits them all.

Christianity, like Islam, has become as much a political force as it is a religion. This presents complications for those who live in countries where these faiths are accepted by the majority of the citizens but not unanimously by all citizens. Majority rule can become rule by force, and the force Christians are exercising is the force of law. I do not welcome America becoming a theocratic state. I think it would be detrimental to the citizens and disastrous for the country.

Here, I agree. This was the same subterfuge that Jesus revealed in the Pharisaic teachings. Christianity hasn't fallen far from the 'tree'.

I don't care what people believe in the context of their own lives any more than I care what they do in bed. I do not, though, think that Christianity should become the default religion of America any more than I think heterosexuality should be mandated for all our citizens.

Although the Church of England broke from under the yoke of the pope (Catholicism), it came under the yoke of the king (or queen). The founders of the government in the New World of America worked hard to see that this didn't happen here. Theocracy puts the subjects at the mercy (and whim) of the ruler(s).

My opinion is that few christians place enough stock in the actual words and teachings of Jesus, and that if they made his teachings and words the core tenets above all else then they would be a much more peaceful and tolerant, and advanced religion.

You are correct, sir!

But really, even if a religion is extremely good, human nature dictates only the people who are ALREADY GOOD will do that goodness justice. The lesser people will pick and choose what they find suits their agenda best and make that "the religion". Really religion does not create the man at all, it does not define him. He defines the way he perceives his religion. One man can be a christian and be peaceful, kind, and generous, one man can be a christian and be bigoted, mean-spirited, spiteful, hateful, and war-like. Is either the "true christian"? You could defend either one using evidence from the bible and have a pretty good case either way.

There is a whole lot of truth in this paragraph but just a slight misconception. I think the Bible could well indeed portray Judaism as "bigoted, mean-spirited, spiteful, hateful, and war-like" but I don't think that you would find it portraying Christians in that light (although, without proper exegesis, one could falsely conclude as much).

[WakeTFU]

An attempt at world peace.

We should brainwash our children to be christians so they don't murder us like today's children will.

lol

[Walrus]

I think the main problem with Christianity is that it is a doctrine that requires converts and has used any methods to achieve this end. This is probably why a religion that proposes peace and love has its history steeped in blood.

[loser]

another day: You made my point. It's MAN and all his foibles that give religion a bad name. I agree with virtually everything you said in post #8.

However, in order for Christianity to work, it must be EXPERIENCED in heart, mind, and soul. What does that mean? It's easy to attribute the heart and the mind to our feelings and our reason (logic), respectively. Men tend to be guided by reason (the mind) and women by feelings (the heart). Both can mislead (deceive) us into making wrong choices.

It is only when these two 'faculties' are guided by the third (soul), that correct choices will always be made...even when it defies our reason and/or our feelings.

Does anyone know what this third part of the equation is?

[Donkey Sage]

I couldn't possibly sum up my thoughts on Christianity, or religion as a whole, in a rambling sentence.

[gela]

It's not animal cruelty to harvest animals for food anymore than it is vegetable cruelty to harvest vegetables for food. Why are animals treated with so much more love and respect than vegetables? Is a puppy cuter than a turnip? Do we treat the better looking and cuter better than we do the ugly and unappealing? Is that why we have beauty contests instead of ugly contests?

This is the opinion that I dislike.
Animales have nerve endings(thus can feel pain) and emotions.
Vegetables don't.
I have no problem with killing animales for food. I don't like putting animales through pain, with practices such as intensive farming.

But according to the christian religion, this is fine.

It's this kind of favoritism that makes mankind incapable of making just and fair judgments. I kick a dog and I am a monster. I swat a fly (or squash a roach) and I am a hero. Justify this, please.

A dog has a bigger brain. A dog has emotions. You can tell because it will welp if you kick it.
A fly or a roach has no noticible emotions. Their brains are tiney, there is probably only enough room for raw instinct. Someone can correct me if im wrong on this one, Im just guessing.

Divides people? If ALL people were Christian (and knew what that meant), we would have a BROTHERHOOD OF MAN, all for one, and one for all! What divides people is (unyielding) people. It's not what Jesus taught (division).

Everyone will never agree with the same thing. It is impossible. Its the beauty of having a little thing called freedom. We can have freedom OR stability.
What people need is tolerance. We need to tolerate other peoples beliefs, we need to let others do what they want.

Unfortunatly, the christian religion says that anyone who doesn't believe what you believe is going to hell. Anyone who isn't one of us is being manipulated by the devil. The devil is just evil without reason(another unrealistic aspect of christianity); thus anyone who isn't us is evil and they are going to hell.

Can you see how this breeds division and intolerance?

Christans with good will towards other cultures do more harm then good, because they are just want to save the other people from hell. The 'make everyone the same as us' attitude is doomed to fail.
Look up the stolen generation to see how much damage this has done.

As far as "environmental apathy", that's NOT a Christian tenet. God's first commandment to man was to "...replenish the earth...". That's the EXACT OPPOSITE of apathy. Replenish means to nourish or fill or make complete again. See how screwed up man's understanding is?

Well, thats one quote.
But the bible being the bible, its contradictory.
Im no expert on this, but my friend does developmental studies at uni, and she was telling me how christianity directly affects peoples disinterest in the environment throughout history.
But I can't recall the details of it, so I will drop this point in the debate.

"dependence on something other then yourself is bad" That, too, is not Christianity. Christianity is not about being served, it's about serving others. Christianity is not about what God can do for you (in the here and now) but what you can do for God (in the form of doing for others). Notice: Mat 20:25 But Jesus called the disciples together and said: You know that foreign rulers like to order their people around. And their great leaders have full power over everyone they rule. Mat 20:26 But don't act like them. If you want to be great, you must be the servant of all the others. Mat 20:27 And if you want to be first, you must be the slave of the rest.

Playing quote the bible is unfair, because I don't know the bible.
But I do know its contrary. I could probably find plenty of quotes which contradict it.

I went to a funeral not long ago; and the preist was quoting from the bible. He was saying that god is your shepard, and that he sustains you, and he protects you, and that you belong to him, and that you are a part of him. He said that someone else is guiding you through life.

If that doesn't spell out dependence then I don't know what dose.

[christianmathew]

Well it seems to me that a few of us have already started to debate, and others have shown their own opinion. Disagreeing is what this site is about, since that is part of debating as a whole.

You all seem to have strong ideas of what christianity is. However, your ideas differ. So it comes down to: can you support your ideas enough to convince the other people on this site?

I will be checking in to say who I think is doing well on this debate, instead of actually debating, arrogant person that I am. Right now, Loser (the dung beetle), seems to be the one showing his opinion most on this topic.

Feel free to just post your beliefs if you want to, debating is obviously not mandatory.

[christianmathew]

Whoops, Gela posted as I was posting. She seems to be able to answer everything Loser said, so maybe she has the upper hand.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: christianmathew On a new topic, What is your quick opinion of christianity?

Christianity is a messiah cult originating from the political unrest of Judea circa 70 ce (around the fall of the second temple). It was invented / able to take hold as a cult due to the hero myths of Judaism and the desperate desire of the Jews to have a savior "show up". There were many 'Jesus cults' in the first century, but orthodoxy (the gospel myth we know today) won out due to the violent nature of it's earlt adherents. The cult became institutionalized by emperor Constantine for political reasons and has been spread through guilt, coercion and outright violence for over 1600 years. Modern Christians remain Christian due largely to early childhood indoctrination. Most never actually question or research their religion objectively and thus remain Christian for life (and indoctrinate their children and so on).

That about sums it up.

[Winter wind]

Christianity is wonderful in it's deepest nature, but a majority of it's following is stupid.

I try to break the norm.

Quote by: zhavric Christianity is a messiah cult originating from the political unrest of Judea circa 70 ce (around the fall of the second temple). It was invented / able to take hold as a cult due to the hero myths of Judaism and the desperate desire of the Jews to have a savior "show up". There were many 'Jesus cults' in the first century, but orthodoxy (the gospel myth we know today) won out due to the violent nature of it's earlt adherents. The cult became institutionalized by emperor Constantine for political reasons and has been spread through guilt, coercion and outright violence for over 1600 years. Modern Christians remain Christian due largely to early childhood indoctrination. Most never actually question or research their religion objectively and thus remain Christian for life (and indoctrinate their children and so on).

Here's something I've always wanted to say to you.

Prove it.

Quote by: gela Can you see how this breeds division and intolerance?

Everything that categorizes people is going to breed division and intolerance of some kind. I just with Christians would not try so hard to sound like a member of a gold membership club.

Im no expert on this, but my friend does developmental studies at uni, and she was telling me how christianity directly affects peoples disinterest in the environment throughout history.

Actually, that train of thought is more the fault of "stupid" optimism that was a popular part of Christianity (still is sometimes). Candide sums it up. (it's Calvinism on steroids).

Because God controls everything and has planned everything, he wouldn't leave us with a failing planet, not unless it was part of his plan.

Christianity basically tells Adam and all humans in various parts of the Bible that humans are the...crap I'm forgetting the exact word (Some Christian I am), but it was like guardian....vanguard...

Whatever, it was synonymous with "renters"
The best definition of why Christians should care for the earth was given by Robin Williams: What if God comes back and says (looking at the ceiling) "who the fuck did this?"

As elegantly worded as that was, I share that view. God put humans at the top of the chain, so we should act accordingly. We rent the house, we take care of the house.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Zhavric Christianity is a messiah cult originating from the political unrest of Judea circa 70 ce (around the fall of the second temple).

Estimated date range of Mark, the first gospel written which the others were based off of: circa 70 ce.

It was invented / able to take hold as a cult due to the hero myths of Judaism and the desperate desire of the Jews to have a savior "show up".

Look at any point in ancient Jewish history and you'll see the same pattern. Jews minding their own business. Jews get conquered. Jews make up story about person who saves them. Moses is a perfect example, but if you need more, let me know.

There were many 'Jesus cults' in the first century,

The personal existence of Jesus as Jehoshua Ben-Pandira can be established beyond a doubt. ... 'He was born in the fourth year of the reign of the Jewish King Alexander Jannæus, notwithstanding the assertions of his followers that he was born in the reign of Herod.' That would be more than a century earlier than the date of birth assigned to the Jesus of the Gospels! But it can be further shown that Jehoshua Ben-Pandira may have been born considerably earlier even than the year 102 BC, although the point is not of much consequence here. Jehoshua, son of Perachia, was a president of the Sanhedrin — the fifth, reckoning from Ezra as the first: one of those who in the line of descent received and transmitted the oral law, as it was said, direct from Sinai. There could not be two of that name. This Ben-Perachia had begun to teach as a Rabbi in the year 154 BC. We may therefore reckon that he was not born later than 180-170 BC, and that it could hardly be later than 100 BC when he went down into Egypt with his pupil. For it is related that he fled there in consequence of a persecution of the Rabbis, feasibly conjectured to refer to the civil war in which the Pharisees revolted against King Alexander Jannæus, and consequently about 105 BC If we put the age of his pupil, Jehoshua Ben-Pandira, at fifteen years, that will give us an approximate date, extracted without pressure, which shows that Jehoshua Ben-Pandira may have been born about the year 120 BC.

Gerald Massey's Published Lectures. (1)


but orthodoxy (the gospel myth we know today) won out due to the violent nature of it's earlt adherents.

The distinction between orthodoxy and its opponents was never as clear cut as later 'official' Church historians were to maintain. Many so-called Gnostics had held positions of authority within the early Church, as did the Apologists later stigmatised as heterodox and heretical. Orthodoxy even appears to have had its own factions. The synoptic "12 Apostles and a ministry of 12 months" has a hint of gnosticism about it, connecting the superstar with the zodiac and astrology. A rival faction of the orthodox favoured a much longer ministry for their hero and a rebuttal of the more esoteric gnostic doctrines. Their ideas entered the canon in the Gospel of John.

Orthodoxy favoured a set of simplistic tales, little more than "comings and goings" of the godman, comprehensible to the uneducated, and readily re-enacted in pageant and ceremonial. These fables were held to be "true accounts from recent history".

In a series of councils and assemblies spanning two centuries, an officially approved and obligatory dogma was hammered out which was then stamped upon the credulous mind of humanity. Those with the temerity to question the creed and sacraments were criminalized, persecuted and eliminated.

The cult became institutionalized by emperor Constantine for political reasons

In Constantine's day, the eastern provinces were by far the richest and most populous of the Roman world. Some of its cities – Pergamon, Symrna, Antioch and so on – had existed for almost a millennium and had accumulated vast wealth from international trade and venerated cult centres. Through its numerous cities passed Roman gold going east in exchange for imports from Persia, India and Arabia. Flowing west with those exotic imports came exotic 'mystery religions' to titillate and enthrall Roman appetites.

In contrast, the western provinces now ruled by Constantine were more recently colonized and less developed. Its cities were small 'new towns', its hinterland still barbarian. During the crisis decades of the 3rd century many provincial Romans in the west had been carried off into slavery by Germanic raiders and their cities burned. The province of Britain and part of northern Gaul had actually seceded from the empire in the late third century – and had been ruled by its own 'emperors' (Carausius, Allectus) with the help of Frankish mercenaries (286-297).

Constantine had no power-base in the east from which to mount a bid for the throne – but he had been at Nicomedia in 303 when Diocletian had decided to purge the Roman state of the disloyal Christian element. He had also served under Galerius on the Danube and witnessed at first-hand how the favoured Galerius – designated heir and rival – in particular despised the cult of Christ.

The ambitious and ruthless prince, from his base in Trier, immediately proclaimed himself 'protector of the Christians.' But it was not the handful of Jesus worshippers in the west that Constantine had in mind – there had not, after all, been any persecution in the west – but the far more numerous congregation in the east. They constituted a tiny minority within the total population (perhaps as few as 2%) but the eastern Christians were an organised force of fanatics, in many cities holding important positions in state administration. Some held posts even within the imperial entourage.

By championing the cause of the Christians Constantine put himself at the head of a 'fifth column' in the east, of a state within a state.

and has been spread through guilt,

Judaism was under direct threat from Roman persecution of the priestly class (seen as a political threat resulting from the uprising against Roman rule) and a new version of Judaism had to be concocted that would be so appealing that people would want to belong to it, and so captivating that people would not want to abandon it, even in the face of persecution, and be politically inoffensive so as to hopefully escape the attentions of the Roman persecutors. It had to abandon the temple worship since there was no temple anymore, and it had to be able to survive the onslaught of foreign ideas which were widely available, from Roman, Hellene, pagan and oriental sources, not to mention the many attractive mystery religions of the Roman Empire. The result is that the new religion had the features of what in our day is called a meme - an idea that actually behaves like a virus - it infects, reproduces and spreads itself, and most importantly, has the ability to evolve to adapt to fluid circumstances. As a response to Roman persecutions following the failed uprising against Rome, Paul and the other founders of Christianity seem to have set out to create a religion that was flexible enough that it could evolve in this way, so as preserve at least some form of Judaism from the Roman persecutions and do so in the absence of a highly organized priesthood.

That meme they mention functions on guilt avoidance which is one of the most powerful motivating emotions there is.

coercion and outright violence for over 1600 years.

Do you really need me to start pulling up websites about the crusades and what missionaries actually did. Really? I will, but I figured this to be common knowledge.

Modern Christians remain Christian due largely to early childhood indoctrination.

Richard Dawkins proposes that religion is a by-product arising from other features of the human species that are adaptive.[4] One such feature is the tendency of children to "believe, without question, whatever your grown-ups tell you" (Dawkins, 2006, p.174). He compares children's gullibility with the tendency of moths to fly towards a flame, a similar rule of thumb. Using distant light from the night sky for navigation works most of the time, but can still fail catastrophically, as happens when they spiral into a nearby flame.

The psychologist Paul Bloom sees it as a by-product of children's instinctive tendency toward a dualistic view of the world, and a predisposition towards creationism.[4] Deborah Keleman has also written that children are naturally teleologists, assigning a purpose to everything they come across.

The God Delusion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Most never actually question or research their religion objectively and thus remain Christian for life (and indoctrinate their children and so on).

Again, this is self-evident. Part of the indoctrination of Christianity is to adopt a different set of (bad) logical rules that apply only to Christian claims. Most Christians are highly intelligent and rational, but suffer from the handicap of only being able to employ bad logic when looking at their own religion. This is why Christians will scoff at the idea of a tabloid reporting that thousands of people saw Elvis after he died, but never doubt the idea that Jesus was seen after he allegedly lived & died. They (Christians) will even go so far as to see rational objections to the grossly ridiculous claims of Christianity as being silly or tabloid-ish. Christians, armed with absolutely zero evidence, will often poke fun at "christ-mythers" who do nothing more than apply logic uniformly.

[Maryjane]

Christianity failed to answer my questions. Having no faith in gods and in myself instead did. <shrug>