a brief opinion of christianity in general

[christianmathew]

I don't have some spectacular degree in history, or a masters in theology, so I will just speak from what I believe. And I believe that Jesus did exist he was hung from a cross, and he did rise on the third day after his death. You may not believe in his miracles, the dates surrounding christianity, that he rose on the third day, you may not even believe that he exists, but I do believe. And I believe my faith is stronger than any lie or twist of logic that you may believe.

[Hurt]

Quote by: christianmathew I don't have some spectacular degree in history, or a masters in theology, so I will just speak from what I believe. And I believe that Jesus did exist he was hung from a cross, and he did rise on the third day after his death. You may not believe in his miracles, the dates surrounding christianity, that he rose on the third day, you may not even believe that he exists, but I do believe. And I believe my faith is stronger than any lie or twist of logic that you may believe.

Twist of logic? I'm confused. You believe in logic for all other aspects of life right? You won't go out and jump off a bridge and expect to survive? Why then, does logic not apply here? Why does faith suddenly trump logic?

[christianmathew]

Twist of logic? I'm confused. You believe in logic for all other aspects of life right? You won't go out and jump off a bridge and expect to survive? Why then, does logic not apply here? Why does faith suddenly trump logic?

Yes, twist of logic. Faith trumps logic here, because my faith will save me from hell. I do believe that I won't survive if I jump off a bridge and die, logic tells me I won't survive. But faith tells me I will go to heaven, a much better place than this. So faith trumps logic.

[JaneDoe321]

Quote by: christianmathew Yes, twist of logic. Faith trumps logic here, because my faith will save me from hell. I do believe that I won't survive if I jump off a bridge and die, logic tells me I won't survive. But faith tells me I will go to heaven, a much better place than this. So faith trumps logic.

That's a heck of a set of card rules.

[suijurisfreeman]

Based on the extensive research that I did back in 1987-90 I believe that
'christianity' is based on Paul's interpretation of Jesus. Paul's version of christianity most definitely was not the same as the Jesus movement! I believe that the man Jesus was a Jewish patriot that opposed the tyranny of Roman rule in Judaea, I believe that he was crucified (just like 1,000's of other Jewish men) for sedition against Rome. I believe that if the words 'My God, My God why have you forsaken me' were actually spoken by Jesus it was because at that point he realized that God was not going to intervene and help him/his followers overthrow the Roman oppressors. The Jesus movement didn't happen in a political vacuum! I found the following books very interesting: The Myth Maker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity, Revolution in Judea both by Hyam Maccoby
and Jesus and the Zealots by S.G.F. Brandon. Also the series on PBS titled From Jesus to Christ very informative, its also available at:
frontline: from jesus to christ - the first christians

[Jack]

Quote by: christianmathew Yes, twist of logic. Faith trumps logic here, because my faith will save me from hell. I do believe that I won't survive if I jump off a bridge and die, logic tells me I won't survive. But faith tells me I will go to heaven, a much better place than this. So faith trumps logic.

That's an easy decision to make. Jumping off a building involves a test of your faith immediately, and everyone will know if your faith was real or not. Depending on faith to deliver on a promise that can't be tested until after death requires no risk, no chance of failure that anyone else will notice. Safe and easy belief.

[christianmathew]

That's a heck of a set of card rules.

Yes it is.

That's an easy decision to make. Jumping off a building involves a test of your faith immediately, and everyone will know if your faith was real or not. Depending on faith to deliver on a promise that can't be tested until after death requires no risk, no chance of failure that anyone else will notice. Safe and easy belief.

True, except for the chance of hell if I fail, or whatever comes after life if my faith is wrong. But you just used logic to prove that my idea of faith is true. What's wrong with that?

[christianmathew]

suijurisfreeman,
That's an interesting tale you tell there. Too bad the bible doesn't go along with it, and I choose to use the bible as my reference book.

[JaneDoe321]

Quote by: christianmathew suijurisfreeman, That's an interesting tale you tell there. Too bad the bible doesn't go along with it, and I choose to use the bible as my reference book.

Well of *course* you do. With the bible in hand you can justify or condemn pretty much *anything*. It's SO convenient!

[suijurisfreeman]

Quote by: christianmathew suijurisfreeman, That's an interesting tale you tell there. Too bad the bible doesn't go along with it, and I choose to use the bible as my reference book.

To me that 'tale' is much easier to swallow than someone who's been dead for 3 days coming back to life!
You see CM up until 1987 I was a practicing 'Christian', however when I began researching the historical facts on how we came to have the 'Bible'
and 'Christianity's' background it was like someone took the blinders off my eyes and I could finally see the light!
When were the various books of the 'Bible' written? Who actually wrote them? When was the canon of the Bible finally 'closed'? Who decided which books were included/excluded? What criteria was used to determine this? Once I honestly researched these questions I was shocked at the answers that I found. I am more at peace with myself now that I know that I don't know anything (as far as the 'meaning' of life goes) than before when I thought that I knew everything as a Christian!

As far as using the Bible as a 'reference book', which Bible? I had 34 different translations of the Bible back in 1987-90. The Bible wasn't written in English - King James or otherwise - my opinion is that the King James Bible is one of the worst. Much has been added over the years, i.e. 1 John 5:7 isn't in the oldest known manuscripts of 1 John; any verses after verse 8 of Mark 16 aren't in the oldest known manuscripts of Mark 16, etc., etc. Even the most basic research of the historical facts of how we came to have the Bible raises serious questions as to it being the 'inspired word of God'.

[Jack]

But you just used logic to prove that my idea of faith is true. What's wrong with that?

Actually I used reason to show that faith in an afterlife is a safe bet that doesn't require any real test of that faith. It's no better than claiming to be a Christian just to be accepted by friends and family. It's safe to do and doesn't require any effort.

[christianmathew]

Well of *course* you do. With the bible in hand you can justify or condemn pretty much *anything*. It's SO convenient!

Yes, it is. Well, its a little bit more compicated than that, but you got the essentials.

Actually I used reason to show that faith in an afterlife is a safe bet that doesn't require any real test of that faith. It's no better than claiming to be a Christian just to be accepted by friends and family. It's safe to do and doesn't require any effort.

I would think it is a test of faith, even though others can't see it. Because if the bridge jumper is wrong, his faith is disproven and there is no heaven or hell. But if he is right, his faith is proven correct and he goes to either heaven or hell. Now, there are different theories about where you will go, since suicide seems to be disobeying god, but that's much more complicated and a whole other topic.

[christianmathew]

suji,
You lost me on the technicalities there. I'll just trust that you don't believe in God, and move on.

[suijurisfreeman]

Quote by: christianmathew suji, You lost me on the technicalities there. I'll just trust that you don't believe in God, and move on.

technicalities? What was so technical about my post? As far as
'God' goes, I have no first hand knowledge of the existence of a being called God. So I guess that would make me more of an agnostic as opposed to an atheist.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Winter wind Not a wonderful analogy.

No. It's a perfect analogy. It's retarded to think that people now would be concerned about debunking a hoax that won't be written for another 70 years.

Christians were prosecuted by the Romans before it was incorporated. Its like the police banned people from speaking about the hoax, but never disproved it.

Nope. You're wrong. The idea that Christians were persecuted is highly exagerated. What actually happened is that the Romans beat up on the Jews for reasons that had zero to do with Jesus or silencing anyone. I tell you what: since you're the one claiming that the Christians were persecuted by the Romans, why don't you post which emperors persecuted the poor Christians. Do so or we'll consider the matter settled.

You present a ton of irrelevant stuff Zhavric.

Dude, I'm not doing this with you. You're going to reply to everything that's in post 19 and you're going to offer a rebuttal or you're going to shut up about / concede. What you're NOT going to do is ignore the facts that I presented and then try to claim that they're irrelevant. Do so in your next post or we'll consider the matter settled. I'm not going to spend three pages watching you dodge & evade the facts. Debate or find another thread.

This is the only point that tries to prove that Jesus doesn't exist.

Nope. You're wrong. Reread post 19 and address the following issues:

The fact that Mark, the first gospel, wasn't invented until the desperate times of the fall of the second temple.

The existence of Jesus cults as early as the first century bce.

The fact that orthodoxy was just one of many tales of the godman that happened to win out.

The fact that the cult spread not because of any truth or popularity, but because of the political machinations of Constantine.

That it's spread through guilt avoidance and violence.

That people still believe it today because they're indoctrinated to do so from childhood.

Debate. Or leave. But these asinine evasions end here.

[Matt W]

You're not the one setting the rules, Zhravic. Tone it down.

[wyoguy]

Quote by: Zhavric The fact that Mark, the first gospel, wasn't invented until the desperate times of the fall of the second temple. The existence of Jesus cults as early as the first century bce. The fact that orthodoxy was just one of many tales of the godman that happened to win out. The fact that the cult spread not because of any truth or popularity, but because of the political machinations of Constantine. That it's spread through guilt avoidance and violence. That people still believe it today because they're indoctrinated to do so from childhood. Debate. Or leave. But these asinine evasions end here.

The fact that every single one of the 12 Apostles were condemned to death and killed by the state. Would you die to defend something that you knew in your heart to be a lie Z? Would you go to bat for Jesus? I believe what those men believed, and I don't know if I have the stones to meet the executioner's sword without second thoughts.

[Jack]

Would you die to defend something that you knew in your heart to be a lie Z?

This is only a testament to the strength of their convictions, not evidence of the validity of the object of their devotion. Does the fact that Muslims are willing to die for Muhammad validate Islam?

[wyoguy]

Quote by: Jack This is only a testament to the strength of their convictions, not evidence of the validity of the object of their devotion. Does the fact that Muslims are willing to die for Muhammad validate Islam?

Absolutely, they are validating that they are completely ready, willing and able to blow up. Sorry Jack, equating terroristic murder-suicide with having your head hacked of with a sword because of faith just doesn't cut it (please excuse the pun). Muslims must not have any dictionaries to look up the word martyr.

[Jack]

Dying for your beliefs is dying for your beliefs. No matter what form it takes, it's an extreme example of absolute devotion to a mindset. What's the differentiation in your opinion?