Some questions for the godless

[Anmon]

another day;497645]Anything is a possibility... but that sounds ridiculous to me. This is just the kind of arrogance that Christians believe in. In reality we are nothing more then naked apes that developed unparalleled intelligence through the chance of many evolutionary successes.

If we came from apes, why are there still apes around now?
How come they didn't evolve as well?
2001 maybe?

Why on earth would you think the human form is the "highest form in the universe"?

I said possibly, key word there.

Because of the variety of skills, feelings, knowlege it has.

Higher then the mountains and the trees and the fruit and fire without which we would inevitably die.

As they are supporting us, then maybe even more reason to believe we are.

No.. the highest form in the universe is all encompassing. In reality there are no forms, only the ONE (which you may call god, but I call nature), and there can not be any one form which is higher then any other because they all depend on each other to exist.

The universe, our world, the mountains etc does not depend on humans to exist.
You said all forms, that includes us.

in buddhism i think they say something to the effect of the ant is equal to the man, and it's this premise they base it on. Everything is equal because it's all part of a complex ecological balance which relies on every single element within it to function properly.

We are separate from that, because it doesn't need us to exist, we of course need the universe to exist, but it certainly does not need us.

[another day]

If we came from apes, why are there still apes around now? How come they didn't evolve as well? 2001 maybe?

They did evolve... they just took a different path. "Apes" are not one animal, but a species. We evolved from a common ancestor, but chimps or gorillas were not around when we begun to evolve. They evolved as well but took a different path. There are many animals on earth that come from shared ancestors. The reason they didn't all evolve into the same animal is the same reason all primates didn't evolve into humans. There are many routes to survival. Gorillas have their huge size and strength. Chameleons have their ingenious disguise. Birds have the ability to evade predators by flight. Frogs have toxins on their skin to kill predators. Humans simply took the route of intelligence to survive, a process which inevitably will continue to further itself as we continue to interact and learn from the world.

I said possibly, key word there. Because of the variety of skills, feelings, knowlege it has.

All of which is given to us by the mere fact that we require the earth and it's resources to survive and learn this. We were birthed by the earth, and therefore can in no way be a supreme being.

As they are supporting us, then maybe even more reason to believe we are.

They are also supporting every other life form on this earth. Is the fruitfly or the bat therefore the highest form in the universe?

The universe, our world, the mountains etc does not depend on humans to exist. You said all forms, that includes us.

If it doesn't depend on humans to exist then that already makes it "a higher form" does it not? I'm just throwing your skewed mindset back at you here...

We are separate from that, because it doesn't need us to exist, we of course need the universe to exist, but it certainly does not need us.

Why does that make us separate? We still exist. That makes us whole.

[Donkey Sage]

Well that looks like the end of this discussion...

Who's up for gumbo?

[Anmon]

=Donkey Sage;497651]Created by anything is what I meant, wasn't speaking specifcally.

So you have no idea either, but you are ready to jump down anyones throat who believe its God.

Good question. I ask it quite often. Still no answer. Will let you know whenever I find out.

I wont hold my breath.

I think the big crunch theory explains this. The Big Bang is a continuous process. It expands and falls back in on itself. What if the universe itself is an object in an even bigger amount of space? The possibilities are quite endless with that.

It makes sense then to just believe in God, as this is beyond us.

Grow up.

No you don't understand, you see the sun as as an insignificant star, which may be true in the grand nature of the universe, but by our sun, I mean it has sustained us for thousands of years(humanity) it has created myths for us through humanity trying to come up with answers to its existance, its had a huge influence on most cultures in the world, that is why I see it as not insignificant.




Astronomers see that Milky Way is packed with earth-like orbs - Boing Boing
The first evidence of new Earth-like planets


Yeah interesting, I sure as hell wouldn't want to get in the way of that planet, with the ten hour orbit time lol
But planets like earth, could still be as rare as hens teeth, sure there may be hundreds of planets the same size, who knows.

[Anmon]

Quote by: Donkey Sage Well that looks like the end of this discussion... Who's up for gumbo?

Grow up

[Donkey Sage]

Quote by: Anmon So you have no idea either, but you are ready to jump down anyones throat who believe its God.

I never jumped down your throat, good sir.

Quote by: Anmon I wont hold my breath.

Good idea.

Quote by: Anmon It makes sense then to just believe in God, as this is beyond us.

I fail to see your logic here.

Quote by: Anmon No you don't understand, you see the sun as as an insignificant star, which may be true in the grand nature of the universe, but by our sun, I meant it has sustained is for thousands of years(humanity) it has created myths for us through humanity trying to come up with answers to its existance, iots had a huge influence on most cultures in the world, that is why I see it as not insignificant.

That's exactly what I was talking about. No need to explain to me the significance of our sun in our solar system. What is the significance of our sun in the universe? Hopefully that clarifies my point for you.

Quote by: Anmon Yeah interesting, I sure wouldn't want to get in the way of that planet with the ten hour orbit time lol But planets like earth, could still be as rare as hens teeth, sure there may be hundreds of planets the same size, who knows.

Considering the size of the universe, you have no way to judge the rarity of planets with life.

[Jack]

And what was around in the present day space the universe occupys presently

The "space the universe occupys[sic] presently" came into being along with the universe. If the big bang happened, space, time and matter all came into existence in this reality at the same moment. There wasn't an expanse of empty space waiting for something to fill it.

It makes sense then to just believe in God, as this is beyond us.

Science is looking for a natural explanation that accounts for the evidence. If the evidence suggested a god, they'd consider that possibility. It doesn't. Not only does it not suggest a god or gods, a god or gods are not required. Stars are still being created, planets formed, all through natural forces. The big bang may seem important to us, but to the universe it was simply the first in a line of processes, many of which we don't yet understand or haven't yet discovered.

Humans are still a young species. The dinosaurs existed longer than we have. We've only been collecting evidence of natural processes for a few thousand years, much of our knowledge only coming in the last few hundred. It's far too soon to expect us to have discovered much of the evidence, let alone to draw conclusions from it. To make the leap to proposing a god was responsible for everything doesn't increase our understanding of nature and in fact inhibits discovery. If we presume we know it all already (god did it) what impetus is there to continue looking?

But planets like earth, could still be as rare as hens teeth, sure there may be hundreds of planets the same size, who knows.

Indeed they could, and again we're only now beginning to find evidence of other planets similar to ours. It's not unreasonable to suspect that life is even more rare. In fact, this planet may have been the only planet with exactly the right conditions for life to begin. That would make life an extremely rare commodity, and might mean we are the only life forms like us that exist, just as the dinosaurs may have been the only life forms like them to have existed anywhere in the universe. In other words, we may be an anomaly, an accident, a one-off. I haven't seen any evidence that contradicts that possibility.

[Jack]

The insulting and taunting is unnecessary and a rule violation. Let's keep this debate civil. We expect everyone to be able to respect other members while challenging their opinions.

DO NOT RESPOND IN THIS THREAD TO THE PRECEDING MESSAGE. Please contact a member of the staff privately if you have any questions.

[Donkey Sage]

Quote by: Isherwood In fact, this planet may have been the only planet with exactly the right conditions for life to begin. That would make life an extremely rare commodity, and might mean we are the only life forms like us that exist, just as the dinosaurs may have been the only life forms like them to have existed anywhere in the universe. In other words, we may be an anomaly, an accident, a one-off. I haven't seen any evidence that contradicts that possibility.

*resists urge to break off into extraterrestrial life discussion*

As big as the universe is, I'd be utterly shocked to find out we're the only intelligent form of life.

[Jack]

Maybe so, but based on what irrefutable evidence we currently have, I see no other reasonable conclusion. As for what we may learn in the future, there's a real "who knows".

[Donkey Sage]

Quote by: Isherwood Maybe so, but based on what irrefutable evidence we currently have, I see no other reasonable conclusion. As for what we may learn in the future, there's a real "who knows".

Good enough for me.

[nerdvincent]

Quote by: Anmon These are some deep things I have wondered about before, and it disturbs me just trying to imagine a reasonable answer to them.

Congrats. This means your critical thinking is working.

Quote by: Anmon Firstly, God apparently he never began, he just always existed, even as a believer that hurts me, because how can something just always exist? But not to believe it means God had a beginning, which means he must have been created by something else, and what created that etc and so on so which is even less sense that leaves me with either God has always existed, or not at all. So if he doesn't exist, then what created everything? And what was around before the universe got created? Another universe? And before that one etc and so on.

Well you saw that it wasn't very logical. So yeah we must admit that either we do not need God to create the universe (because of the reason cited above and because I don't see why nature needs a creator while God doesn't: if we must put a begining somewhere why to rely on God?) or that time started with the begening of the uiverse so that before Big Bang is as stupid as saying "colder than 0K. This last theory doesn't need a surnatural creator either.

Quote by: Anmon Now we know the universe is huge, so huge we cant really comprehend how big it actually is.?

What's on the other side? Vacuum. Nothingness. Matter just didn't have enough time to get in those place since BB ("universe in expansion"), but there is not wall or something like that

[rez]

Quote by: Anmon These are some deep things I have wondered about before, and it disturbs me just trying to imagine a reasonable answer to them.

Let's see what deep thoughts you have then.

Firstly, God apparently he never began, he just always existed, even as a believer that hurts me, because how can something just always exist?

What are you basing your thought on? Why can't "something" always exist?

But not to believe it means God had a beginning, which means he must have been created by something else, and what created that etc and so on so which is even less sense that leaves me with either God has always existed, or not at all.

If it doesnt make sense to you that something can always exist, then it must mean something can't always exist. That something, in this case is god.

So if he doesn't exist, then what created everything?

Thats not deep thinking. What does it mean to create something? Does it mean having a conscious purpose and design to make something out of nothing? Creation could be a rock that falls 5 centimeters and ends up crushing another rock into little pieces.

And what was around before the universe got created? Another universe? And before that one etc and so on.

Thats something you need to learn yourself. I am not here to teach you.

But say it does have a limit, which logically it should have, then what is past that?

Where the hell did you come up with this logic?

[Anmon]

Quote by: rez Where the hell did you come up with this logic?

Because everything we know about has certain limits, ie the universe is expanding, growing therefor logic dictates it must have an edge somewhere a limit for it pushing out, for it to be growing.
And if theres a limit, then there must be something past this limit also, its expanding out into.

[Anmon]

Quote by: nerdvincent What's on the other side? Vacuum. Nothingness. Matter just didn't have enough time to get in those place since BB ("universe in expansion"), but there is not wall or something like that

so you admit its a place?
Even vacuum or nothingness as you say is something, a space open to be filled by something.

[Anmon]

Quote by: another day T If it doesn't depend on humans to exist then that already makes it "a higher form" does it not? I'm just throwing your skewed mindset back at you here...

Skewed, why because I don't agree with your mindset?

I was arguing your point of humans being equal to all other parts of the universe, and vice versa, but now you say the universe is 'a higher life form' 'because it doesn't depend on us to exist?
Negating your earlier point of everything being equal to each other.
Non dependence on something doesn't make you a higher form of life.

[Jack]

"Higher" implies an ideal. There's no "higher" among life forms.

We depend on the Earth and the conditions present here to survive. The planet does not exist because of, or may I add for the benefit of, humans or any other form of life. It exists independent of us, just like it has existed with, and now without, most species of dinosaurs.

[Anmon]

Quote by: Isherwood "Higher" implies an ideal. There's no "higher" among life forms. We depend on the Earth and the conditions present here to survive. The planet does not exist because of, or may I add for the benefit of, humans or any other form of life. It exists independent of us, just like it has existed with, and now without, most species of dinosaurs.

Well I disagree Isherwood, based on humanity's greater intelligence, and powers of reasoning which dwarfs anything else alive.

[Jack]

Quote by: Anmon Well I disagree Isherwood, based on humanity's greater intelligence, and powers of reasoning which dwarfs anything else alive.

We say we have greater intelligence and powers of reasoning, based on standards we devised. The bias in those conclusions is inescapable. If the standards for intelligence and reason were cooperative living and doing no harm to one's environment, we'd hardly top the list.

In any case, that would simply mean we were the superior life form on this one planet. Perhaps we are the most advanced life form produced on Earth. It hardly makes much difference to the universe or, ultimately, to the Earth. It would easily survive our disappearance.

[Chris]

Anmon,

This thread is too long for me to quickly read in the time I have this morning, but we know a great deal about how matter came into existence in the Universe. We know a lot about the early universe because of the nature of light. We can use our telescopes as time machines to look back into the past. The bad thing about religions and Christianity in particular, they are not willing to even look at the accepted scientific data confirmed and undisputed world wide. I recommend this article. It has a great time line description.

Before the big bang, I have heard from many people that time itself did not exist. Well, not in this universe. The truth of the matter is, science has revealed and explained more than the authors of the bible, and the inventors of God could ever dream of revealing or explaining. I am not trying to bash faith at every turn, but I place more credence in modern science than a book written by people in the desert in the bronze age filled with mythologies and strict rules of control.