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HelioPrime · Apr 9, 2008, 10:23 am

For those who know the Christian story, Judas was one of the 12 apostles who later betrayed Jesus for a sack of coin. In the bible Judas repents his sins but then hands himself. If you've watched passion then he's portrayed as hanging himself after being tormented by the devil without seeking forgiveness. The divine comedy places him in the depths of hell as well.

So clearly there exist opposing viewpoints. Christian art from across history also always portrays heaven with the 12 apostles seated around the throne of God. So apparently in art Judas was forgiven.

Seems to be an odd contradiction. Of course Judas could be seen as the unwilling player, since the sacrifice of Jesus was destined.

So thoughts if anyone has any?

butterbut · Apr 9, 2008, 08:36 pm

Judas was replaced by Matthias. So the paintings you're refering to don't show Judas but Matthias.

I don't think Judas was forgiven becuase he committed suicide, thus totally rejectinig any trust in God. Only God really knows though.

Magnus · Apr 10, 2008, 12:22 am

He committed suicide, but even that was foreseen by god, so is he the only person to commit suicide but still go to heaven?

On a similar note, how many times do you think the vulture ate prometheus' liver before he was freed?

Milton Bradley · Apr 10, 2008, 12:57 am

Judge not, lest ye be judged.

Anmon · Apr 10, 2008, 12:18 pm

Jesus forgives everyone, if they truly repent, its forgiving ourselves thats harder.

Magnus · Apr 10, 2008, 12:58 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Anmon

Jesus forgives everyone, if they truly repent.

Including non-christians and dont repent before they die?

Anmon · Apr 10, 2008, 01:02 pm

Anyone, as long as its before you die, and meant.
I cant see repenting after you die as worth anything, because its what you do in life that counts.
tbh, I don't think we would even get the chance.

**Jack** · Apr 10, 2008, 01:04 pm

Judas did nothing to be forgiven for. He was destined to do what he did (presuming any of the story is remotely factual). If he'd have exercised his free will and chosen not to betray Jesus, Jesus may not have been crucified. Then where would Christianity be?

Anmon · Apr 10, 2008, 01:20 pm

It was his fate, he was always going to betray Jesus.

**Jack** · Apr 10, 2008, 01:24 pm

Christians really ought to be grateful to Judas. Without him there'd be no Christianity.

Anmon · Apr 10, 2008, 01:36 pm

Thats why he was born, to betray Jesus so there would be Christianity.
Were not grateful, because it was always going to happen anyway.

Magnus · Apr 10, 2008, 01:54 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Anmon

It was his fate, he was always going to betray Jesus.

so god has condemned him to hell forever, a small price to pay huh ?

Magnus · Apr 10, 2008, 01:54 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Anmon

Were not grateful, because it was always going to happen anyway.

Oh so he had no free will? I thought god was all about free will, oh well, learn something new about christianity every day, the ever morphing religion

Anmon · Apr 10, 2008, 02:11 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Magnus

so god has condemned him to hell forever, a small price to pay huh ?

He condemned himself, fate is fate.
Personally I don't think he went to hell, his actions in betraying Jesus to the Romans and Jewish Law, led to Christianity being born, so there must be some reward for that.

Anmon · Apr 10, 2008, 02:13 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Magnus

Oh so he had no free will? I thought god was all about free will, oh well, learn something new about christianity every day, the ever morphing religion

We have free will, but our fate as I see it, is decided by our free will, not the other way around.

HelioPrime · Apr 10, 2008, 03:49 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Isherwood

Christians really ought to be grateful to Judas. Without him there'd be no Christianity.

Your assuming it couldn't have spread otherwise?

HelioPrime · Apr 10, 2008, 03:50 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Anmon

It was his fate, he was always going to betray Jesus.

That's the problem with Judas. It's one part of the story that kinda shows people don't really have free will or that people are pre destined.

Anmon · Apr 10, 2008, 03:58 pm

If you go back and read the thread, you will see my views on how free will influences fate.

**Jack** · Apr 10, 2008, 05:29 pm

Quote:

Quote by: HelioPrime

Your assuming it couldn't have spread otherwise?

There wouldn't have been anything to spread. No betrayal, no arrest, no crucifixion, no resurrection, no Christianity. Who else among the disciples would have fulfilled Judas' mission had he decided not to betray Jesus?

Or would god have found another way to offer salvation without J's sacrifice?

Morality Games · Apr 10, 2008, 05:31 pm

That is why some Gnostics interpreted Judas as a hero (who was secretly acting under Jesus' orders when he betrayed him).

Apr 9, 2008, 10:23 am	#1 (permalink) (top)
HelioPrime Hucking Fuskies Location: Conn Posts: 2,374	Was Judas forgiven? For those who know the Christian story, Judas was one of the 12 apostles who later betrayed Jesus for a sack of coin. In the bible Judas repents his sins but then hands himself. If you've watched passion then he's portrayed as hanging himself after being tormented by the devil without seeking forgiveness. The divine comedy places him in the depths of hell as well. So clearly there exist opposing viewpoints. Christian art from across history also always portrays heaven with the 12 apostles seated around the throne of God. So apparently in art Judas was forgiven. Seems to be an odd contradiction. Of course Judas could be seen as the unwilling player, since the sacrifice of Jesus was destined. So thoughts if anyone has any? What do you say to an atheist who sneezes? Yourdeadthatsit! - Dane Cook

Apr 9, 2008, 08:36 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
butterbut UCFKnight Location: UCF Posts: 211	Judas was replaced by Matthias. So the paintings you're refering to don't show Judas but Matthias. I don't think Judas was forgiven becuase he committed suicide, thus totally rejectinig any trust in God. Only God really knows though. "Moral courage is the most valuable and usually the most absent characteristic in men." - General George S. Patton, Jr

Apr 10, 2008, 01:04 pm	#8 (permalink) (top)
Jack formerly Isherwood Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 13,277	Judas did nothing to be forgiven for. He was destined to do what he did (presuming any of the story is remotely factual). If he'd have exercised his free will and chosen not to betray Jesus, Jesus may not have been crucified. Then where would Christianity be? The Forum Rules Radical Atheist Heathen Queer Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be. (Ashleigh Brilliant)

Apr 10, 2008, 01:24 pm	#10 (permalink) (top)
Jack formerly Isherwood Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 13,277	Christians really ought to be grateful to Judas. Without him there'd be no Christianity. The Forum Rules Radical Atheist Heathen Queer Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be. (Ashleigh Brilliant)

Apr 10, 2008, 05:31 pm	#20 (permalink) (top)
Morality Games Hot Lava Location: Iowa Posts: 820	That is why some Gnostics interpreted Judas as a hero (who was secretly acting under Jesus' orders when he betrayed him). A moral being is an entity for whom the disadvantage of others is an issue. – K.H.Y.

Apr 10, 2008, 12:22 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
Magnus BANNED Posts: 142	He committed suicide, but even that was foreseen by god, so is he the only person to commit suicide but still go to heaven? On a similar note, how many times do you think the vulture ate prometheus' liver before he was freed?

Apr 10, 2008, 12:57 am	#4 (permalink) (top)
Milton Bradley BANNED Location: Ohio Province, Rep. of Comerica Posts: 7,320	Judge not, lest ye be judged.

Apr 10, 2008, 12:18 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
Anmon BANNED Location: between the good and the bad Posts: 1,330	Jesus forgives everyone, if they truly repent, its forgiving ourselves thats harder.

Apr 10, 2008, 01:02 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
Anmon BANNED Location: between the good and the bad Posts: 1,330	Anyone, as long as its before you die, and meant. I cant see repenting after you die as worth anything, because its what you do in life that counts. tbh, I don't think we would even get the chance.

Apr 10, 2008, 01:20 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
Anmon BANNED Location: between the good and the bad Posts: 1,330	It was his fate, he was always going to betray Jesus.

Apr 10, 2008, 01:36 pm	#11 (permalink) (top)
Anmon BANNED Location: between the good and the bad Posts: 1,330	Thats why he was born, to betray Jesus so there would be Christianity. Were not grateful, because it was always going to happen anyway.

Apr 10, 2008, 03:58 pm	#18 (permalink) (top)
Anmon BANNED Location: between the good and the bad Posts: 1,330	If you go back and read the thread, you will see my views on how free will influences fate.