Was Judas forgiven?

[Magnus]

Quote by: Anmon We have free will, but our fate as I see it, is decided by our free will, not the other way around.

fate and free will are mutually exclusive

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Isherwood There wouldn't have been anything to spread. No betrayal, no arrest, no crucifixion, no resurrection, no Christianity. Who else among the disciples would have fulfilled Judas' mission had he decided not to betray Jesus? Or would god have found another way to offer salvation without J's sacrifice?

In a way it was destiny.

Sort of the idea from final destination. You have free will, but your still going to die. The choices the characters made led them to their deaths because that was fate.

Judas would be the same. He may have had free ability to choose but he was fated to choose to betray Jesus.

[Magnus]

Quote by: HelioPrime In a way it was destiny. Sort of the idea from final destination. You have free will, but your still going to die. The choices the characters made led them to their deaths because that was fate. Judas would be the same. He may have had free ability to choose but he was fated to choose to betray Jesus.

This is basic philosophy, this can be learned in a college level class, free will and fate/destiny are mutually exclusive.

[Milton Bradley]

I guess some of you are comfortable going to Hell for passing judgement. Go figure.

[Gods_Mercenary]

In my sometimes christian theologian phases, I tend to reject any idea that Judas is forced to be part of a great plan. (part of a deeply ingrained catholic hatred of the notion of pre-destination, no doubt, even as an agnostic, that stuff'll get ya) Judas, as the bible tells it, clearly makes a decision out of free will to betray Jesus, likely not out of financial incentive, but of ideaological one. Judas was likely deeply dissappointed with Jesus' pacifism, or wished to incite Jesus to be the ilitary hero that he and so many Jews desperately longed for. He is also clearly remorseful, taking his own life out of a conviction of his own evilness. All this adds up to, depending on how relativist you care to get, te possibility that Judas could have been forgiven based on the understandable intention of his sin, the fact that the consequences may have been unintended, and his deep remorse.

[Anmon]

Quote by: Magnus fate and free will are mutually exclusive

I don't believe so.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Magnus This is basic philosophy, this can be learned in a college level class, free will and fate/destiny are mutually exclusive.

How does that work?

You can have free will, and unknown to you your choices still lead to a certain end. Your still dead in the final destination movie case, but your specific type of death alters with what you choose.

[another day]

Quote by: Milton Bradley Judge not, lest ye be judged.

What, trying to get the Christians to follow one of their own teachings? Madness!

It's interesting how the teachings most practiced and preached by Christians are those that allow them to pass judgment on others... Homosexuals, atheists, muslims, jews, you name it, they judge it, and condemn it with all the appropriate hellfire and brimstone.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Milton Bradley I guess some of you are comfortable going to Hell for passing judgement. Go figure.

Says the one going to hell for lack of belief. Go figure.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: another day What, trying to get the Christians to follow one of their own teachings? Madness!

If that was true, then no christian could support a legal law system. I'm sure the secular folk would love a new revolution in christianity where people undermined the authority of the court and constitution.

[Anmon]

Quote by: HelioPrime How does that work? You can have free will, and unknown to you your choices still lead to a certain end. Your still dead in the final destination movie case, but your specific type of death alters with what you choose.

Exactly our free will to choose what we do in life leads us eventually to our fate, be that either good or bad, or non eventful, which is bad I guess..

[another day]

Quote by: HelioPrime If that was true, then no christian could support a legal law system. I'm sure the secular folk would love a new revolution in christianity where people undermined the authority of the court and constitution.

So in other words, christianity is not compatible with reality, or at least, modern society. Yep, we're in agreement there. An archaic set of stone age teachings has no relevance nor practicality in the world today. So it's no wonder christians have such a hard time "following it".

Can you not tell how tongue in cheek his comment was? It's important to throw the teachings back into the face of believers... Shakes them out of their self-righteous delusions a bit.

[JaneDoe321]

Quote by: HelioPrime If that was true, then no christian could support a legal law system. I'm sure the secular folk would love a new revolution in christianity where people undermined the authority of the court and constitution.

It does seem that quite a few Christians don't support a legal law system unless it's skewed completely to *their* personal religious rules as well (not that they can all get together to agree what the heck those rules are anyway..... I'd personally like to see Christians square that up before pressuring me to abide by their religious rules....).

I'm not talking the basics of group living like "Don't kill the next guy" and "Stop stealing your neighbor's stuff", I'm talking about things like blue laws, laws about what makes a "real" family, etc.

This isn't *only* true of Christians, obviously, like the Jewish neighborhods that basically pressure non-observant folks not to do business during *somebody else's Sabbath*, or Muslim communities where *every* woman has to wear a head covering regardless of personal religion, etc etc.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Its not only religions that attempt to push morality on other people, there are too many examples to mention, but the entire progressive movement of the early 1900s is the perfect example. Hell, there's barely one person who doesn't like to bring their own personal morality into politics.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: another day So in other words, christianity is not compatible with reality, or at least, modern society. Yep, we're in agreement there. An archaic set of stone age teachings has no relevance nor practicality in the world today. So it's no wonder christians have such a hard time "following it". Can you not tell how tongue in cheek his comment was? It's important to throw the teachings back into the face of believers... Shakes them out of their self-righteous delusions a bit.

The reverse is how I see it. Modern society has been tainted and fallen. Now we celebrate and applaud outright fights against social norms.

We seem to have this deeply rooted personal feeling that you can do anything you want with your life today, and anyone telling you otherwise is violating your civil liberties.

[another day]

Quote by: HelioPrime The reverse is how I see it. Modern society has been tainted and fallen. Now we celebrate and applaud outright fights against social norms.

Oh really, so the times when Christianity reigned supreme were just great? Like the medieval times. Man great times. Very great times. Full of love and happiness and flowers and peace.

We seem to have this deeply rooted personal feeling that you can do anything you want with your life today, and anyone telling you otherwise is violating your civil liberties.

Anything except violence or thievery, yes. Why is that ridiculous?

I thought GOD was the one who was supposed to judge us??

[Jack]

Some only perceive the present as substantially different from the past because they don't know the past. While technology and society evolve, mankind changes much more slowly.

"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise [disrespectful] and impatient of restraint"

(Hesiod, 8th century BCE).

[Anmon]

But can you imagine how todays youth would fare back then Isherwood, they would probably make Hesiods youths gone wrong, look like well behaved angels.

[JaneDoe321]

Are you referring to the average youth, or members of the criminal element who are under age?

[another day]

Quote by: Isherwood Some only perceive the present as substantially different from the past because they don't know the past. While technology and society evolve, mankind changes much more slowly.

Exactly. Woe is now. I judge you to be a new decedent of the past and tell me it was oh so wonderful. The truth is, the present has always romanticized the past as the time of unsurpassed glory and morality. In reality, this was never the case.