Interesting Quote

[rebelnyell]

Here is a quote that I just recently read and thought I should post it here.

"The fact is that far more crime and child abuse has been committed by zealots in the name of God, Jesus and Mohammed than has ever been committed in the name of Satan. Many people do not like that statement, but few can argue it." -- Kenneth V. Lanning, FBI Report on Occult Crime, Oct. 1989

This statement was made in 1989 and it is clear in todays world that it is even more evident from both sides of the war on terror. From Bush's view and the terrorists view.

[Halofan48]

I agree with the quote fully. History is full of religious fanatics committing terrible deeds.

[gela]

When people think an almighty all powerful being is on their side, they can do whatever they feel like.

[lindsay7]

Just as many people have committed crimes in the name of their own selfish desires, as have done in the name of God. People in general just suck.

[phoenix_fire]

Indeed. If a murder is committed, we expect to find a few screws loose. I have a rival quote:

Quote by: Charles Baudelaire Mes chers frères, n'oubliez jamais, quand vous entendrez vanter le progrès des lumières, que la plus belle des ruses du diable est de vous persuader qu'il n'existe pas!

The translation goes:

My dear brothers, never forget, when you hear the progress of enlightenment vaunted, that the devil's best trick is to persuade you that he doesn't exist!

It is in Satan's best interests to manipulate from the shadows. He doesn't need to get people to worship him. He just needs to get people to not worship God. The OP incorrectly presumes that the two are merely competitors. It's not true. God is sovereign. The devil knows he can't really win this war. It's a war of attrition. The devil is sick and bitter and proud and vengeful and hateful and spiteful. And all he is really interested in is hurting God as much as possible by deceiving, twisting, perverting, defiling, and ultimately murdering as many of God's beloved children as he can in order to try to extract as much pain as possible from the Father at the sight of His children's suffering.

Think of it this way: some person who hates you very much has kidnapped your toddler son. You go all over the world, to Hell and back trying to find him. In the meantime, this sick person has been raising (and sodomizing) your child. He doesn't want him to know about his father. When you finally do find him, your son says "who the hell are you? I don't have a father". Do you really think it would be in the kidnapper's best interests to reveal to the kid that he kidnapped him just to hurt the kid's father? Absolutely not. Then the kid would want to be with the father, and the revenge just wouldn't be as good. That might kinda give one an idea.

[rebelnyell]

Quote by: phoenix_fire Indeed. If a murder is committed, we expect to find a few screws loose. I have a rival quote: The translation goes: It is in Satan's best interests to manipulate from the shadows. He doesn't need to get people to worship him. He just needs to get people to not worship God. The OP incorrectly presumes that the two are merely competitors. It's not true. God is sovereign. The devil knows he can't really win this war. It's a war of attrition. The devil is sick and bitter and proud and vengeful and hateful and spiteful. And all he is really interested in is hurting God as much as possible by deceiving, twisting, perverting, defiling, and ultimately murdering as many of God's beloved children as he can in order to try to extract as much pain as possible from the Father at the sight of His children's suffering. Think of it this way: some person who hates you very much has kidnapped your toddler son. You go all over the world, to Hell and back trying to find him. In the meantime, this sick person has been raising (and sodomizing) your child. He doesn't want him to know about his father. When you finally do find him, your son says "who the hell are you? I don't have a father". Do you really think it would be in the kidnapper's best interests to reveal to the kid that he kidnapped him just to hurt the kid's father? Absolutely not. Then the kid would want to be with the father, and the revenge just wouldn't be as good. That might kinda give one an idea.

This is an interesting way of thinking of this but here is something I thought about:
One thing that I would like to bring up that somewhat has to do with this is why God lets things like this happen (I am mainly making this point from a Catholic stand point just so it makes more sense). Why does God let people believe in these false ideas unlike how he has dealt with these things in the past. One example being the destruction of the Tower of Babel from Genesis. Why was God more outright at diminishing these false ideas and trickeries then he is today by not doing anything at all except just letting faith take over. Something doesn't make sense to me on how or why God doesn't do anything about this today unlike how he has handled this in the past. Why does he lack intervention in this day and age. Once again I am just making this post from a Christian (God) stand point.

[phoenix_fire]

Do parents spank their adult children for drinking alcohol? Nope. Humanity has reached a more mature era. Not only that, but people's ability to deny even in the face of overwhelming evidence is astounding. And do you think that people are going to believe something Tower of Babel-esque when David Copperfield can make the Statue of Liberty disappear? God sent the Holy Spirit. And people underestimate just how huge that is. It's a way better miracle than the flashier stuff.

[Voluntary]

Quote by: phoenix_fire It is in Satan's best interests to manipulate from the shadows. He doesn't need to get people to worship him. He just needs to get people to not worship God.

Are you saying that I am under the influence of the devil since I do not believe in god, and thus, do not worship him?

The devil knows he can't really win this war.

I can't comprehend why people believe the Earth is center stage in a cosmic battle between good and evil.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Voluntary Are you saying that I am under the influence of the devil since I do not believe in god, and thus, do not worship him?

I didn't mean it in the way that you're thinking because that would presuppose a knowledge that I don't have. But you believe the lie. That's my point of view anyway. If you believe someone's lie, you can be said to be under their influence.

I can't comprehend why people believe the Earth is center stage in a cosmic battle between good and evil.

If you've ever been smack in the middle of an earthly war that's raging across your homeland, you might have an easier time picturing it. Most people that live in a land that is spoiled on peace and prosperity can't even comprehend the corporeal wars that they can watch on the news. And yet these conflicts are no less real.

[rebelnyell]

Quote by: phoenix_fire Do parents spank their adult children for drinking alcohol? Nope. Humanity has reached a more mature era. Not only that, but people's ability to deny even in the face of overwhelming evidence is astounding. And do you think that people are going to believe something Tower of Babel-esque when David Copperfield can make the Statue of Liberty disappear? God sent the Holy Spirit. And people underestimate just how huge that is. It's a way better miracle than the flashier stuff.

I would like to start off saying that I am not a Catholic.
Well from my stand point the flashier attempts to deny false Gods and the Evil of the Devil hit home much more successful then the miracle of the Holy Spirit on a massive scale. With the Holy Spirit it seems that it is much easier for the Devil to take control and twist things unlike when God could make himself present like he did in the Old Testament times to stop or halt these problems. I think that this has caused more problems than it has actually solved making it easier for the Devil to enter ones world through various ways that weren't possible before God sent the Holy Spirit. Now it is much easier to mistake the voice of God (the Holy Spirit) as the Devil's trickery. Now a days there isn't as much of a fine line between this good and evil that can help you determine which is which. It is harder and harder to know who to actually trust and to figure out which is the voice of God, the Devil, or just a person losing sanity conversing with nothing at all.

[Halofan48]

I didn't mean it in the way that you're thinking because that would presuppose a knowledge that I don't have. But you believe the lie. That's my point of view anyway. If you believe someone's lie, you can be said to be under their influence.

What makes what you believe truth and what I believe a lie? If i chose to think something of my own accord, with little or no influence to make the choice, am i myself making a lie if it is not in accordance to what you believe? What if he chose to be an atheist of his own accord? Meanwhile, you have had influence to believe that Christ is the son of a god and is your savior, and etc.

[Morality Games]

And yet these conflicts are no less real.

The difference is I can see a war because it is corpreal. Looking at the history of civilizations, where does the good begin? The evil? Imagining such a conflict and then placing themselves on the side of the good ... now that is pride in action, real self-aggrandizement, and it obviously has nothing to do with the psychology of history of the matter.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Halofan48 What makes what you believe truth and what I believe a lie? If i chose to think something of my own accord, with little or no influence to make the choice, am i myself making a lie if it is not in accordance to what you believe? What if he chose to be an atheist of his own accord? Meanwhile, you have had influence to believe that Christ is the son of a god and is your savior, and etc.

The lie has been around since before time. No offense but you just think you're saying something original. Like Richard Dawkins. Everything he says has already been said. He just thinks he's clever. When it's all the same, you can ask for it by name. If not for the lie, there would be no need for proof as people would not be estranged from God.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Morality Games The difference is I can see a war because it is corpreal. Looking at the history of civilizations, where does the good begin? The evil? Imagining such a conflict and then placing themselves on the side of the good ... now that is pride in action, real self-aggrandizement, and it obviously has nothing to do with the psychology of history of the matter.

I was just using that as an example of why it might be hard to conceive of a cosmic war. If you can't even understand one that's right in front of you on your television screen, what hope do you have of understanding one on a higher plane of existence? I don't attribute pure benevolence or pure malevolence to any side in any earthly war. I never implied that I did. That whole conversation is superfluous to the gist of my post.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: rebelnyell I would like to start off saying that I am not a Catholic. Well from my stand point the flashier attempts to deny false Gods and the Evil of the Devil hit home much more successful then the miracle of the Holy Spirit on a massive scale. With the Holy Spirit it seems that it is much easier for the Devil to take control and twist things unlike when God could make himself present like he did in the Old Testament times to stop or halt these problems. I think that this has caused more problems than it has actually solved making it easier for the Devil to enter ones world through various ways that weren't possible before God sent the Holy Spirit. Now it is much easier to mistake the voice of God (the Holy Spirit) as the Devil's trickery. Now a days there isn't as much of a fine line between this good and evil that can help you determine which is which. It is harder and harder to know who to actually trust and to figure out which is the voice of God, the Devil, or just a person losing sanity conversing with nothing at all.

I'm not Catholic either.

If you look at it, the Holy Spirit has reached far more people than one of those OT miracles. The Word is changing people of every tribe, gender, and locale. Many of those OT miracles, amazing as they were, didn't even convince the people they were directly shown to. And often, the miracle was forgotten within a generation. The Hebrews forgot far too easily that God did numerous huge miracles to get them out of Egypt. When they made it to the Promised Land, they forgot that God fed them manna from the sky. The prophets did all sorts of things and they were stoned to death.

Quote by: Numbers 14:11 The LORD said to Moses, "How long will these people treat me with contempt? How long will they refuse to believe in me, in spite of all the miraculous signs I have performed among them?

Quote by: Matthew 16:1-4 The Pharisees and Sadducees came to Jesus and tested him by asking him to show them a sign from heaven. He replied, "When evening comes, you say, 'It will be fair weather, for the sky is red,' and in the morning, 'Today it will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast.' You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times. A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah." Jesus then left them and went away.

[rebelnyell]

Quote by: phoenix_fire I'm not Catholic either. If you look at it, the Holy Spirit has reached far more people than one of those OT miracles. The Word is changing people of every tribe, gender, and locale. Many of those OT miracles, amazing as they were, didn't even convince the people they were directly shown to. And often, the miracle was forgotten within a generation. The Hebrews forgot far too easily that God did numerous huge miracles to get them out of Egypt. When they made it to the Promised Land, they forgot that God fed them manna from the sky. The prophets did all sorts of things and they were stoned to death.

I am not Christian, follow any organized faith, or truly believe in a God.
I am wondering how you have come to the conclusion that it has helped more and more people. I personally think that it may have helped some but it has also caused just as many if not more problems and is evident with the quote I posted above. So many people are killing in the name of "God" and this is somewhat caused by the Holy Spirit which I expanded upon in my last post. Your are right that they are both equally not as influential but I believe if these miraculous events would occur in this day and age than it would have quite an effect on our world. With the profound documentation of events and understanding of things in our world and things we have today, a miracle like this would have much more of a profound effect on todays society then it may have been dismissed in the past. Still it probably wouldn't convince everyone.

[phoenix_fire]

(How did I know it would be another one that equates Catholicism with the whole of Christianity?)

It would be even more dismissed today. Remember David Copperfield?

The Holy Spirit does not cause people to kill in the name of God. That's the other guys. And more often than not, that justification was just an excuse to burn, pillage, and rape. Even the priests that were in on it did so for power and influence.

The advantage of the Holy Spirit and the fact that His presence is the biggest miracle cannot be easily explained if you don't know Him. I could lay out the theology, but it would be like explaining color to a blind person...no offense.

[rebelnyell]

Quote by: phoenix_fire (How did I know it would be another one that equates Catholicism with the whole of Christianity?) It would be even more dismissed today. Remember David Copperfield?

I am not equating Catholicism with Christianity. This is what I said first:

I would like to start off saying that I am not a Catholic.

Then when you said you weren't also I said this:

I am not Christian, follow any organized faith, or truly believe in a God.

I find it odd how you are comparing the actions of something being done by God to something being done by a human. Certainly there would be people questioning or trying to figure out David Copperfield because he is an illusionist and undoubtedly a human performing these actions. Some of which he explain (though this incident not being one of them) makes it even more believable that this action was an illusion or a trick. Clearly if some of the events that happened in the Old Testament happened to day it would be pretty hard to dismiss them with our knowledge. How could you explain manna falling from the sky, presence leading them to the promise land, or God destroying the Tower of Babel then confusing the whole world language and spreading them across the globe? If you can think of a reasonable explanation to explain these things with the knowledge of today and not using God then do it. David Copperfield's illusions can be explained without a presence of a God(s) or super being.

The Holy Spirit does not cause people to kill in the name of God. That's the other guys. And more often than not, that justification was just an excuse to burn, pillage, and rape. Even the priests that were in on it did so for power and influence. The advantage of the Holy Spirit and the fact that His presence is the biggest miracle cannot be easily explained if you don't know Him. I could lay out the theology, but it would be like explaining color to a blind person...no offense.

I already state that it wasn't caused by the Holy Spirit. Sorry for my wording above but I said somewhat caused by the Holy Spirit. If you read what I posted earlier this would have made a little more sense.:

Well from my stand point the flashier attempts to deny false Gods and the Evil of the Devil hit home much more successful then the miracle of the Holy Spirit on a massive scale. With the Holy Spirit it seems that it is much easier for the Devil to take control and twist things unlike when God could make himself present like he did in the Old Testament times to stop or halt these problems. I think that this has caused more problems than it has actually solved making it easier for the Devil to enter ones world through various ways that weren't possible before God sent the Holy Spirit. Now it is much easier to mistake the voice of God (the Holy Spirit) as the Devil's trickery. Now a days there isn't as much of a fine line between this good and evil that can help you determine which is which. It is harder and harder to know who to actually trust and to figure out which is the voice of God, the Devil, or just a person losing sanity conversing with nothing at all.

Here is just one example I could find quickly that it isn't used a justification that would support my statement above:
A killing in God's name.

Everett -- When the Prophet Elijah sat at his piano to play, witnesses say, the members of the Gatekeepers sect knew what to expect. The voice of God was about to speak. As Elijah played, eerie music filled the room, and strange sayings tumbled from their lips. Sometimes the voices spoke through Elijah. Sometimes through the clan. Always, though, it was Elijah -- Christopher Turgeon to the rest of the world -- who told them what it meant. One day, the voice told them to beat the children. Another day, to shoot a dog. Finally, it told them to kill a man. Turgeon, 37, and follower Blaine Applin, 30, are on trial this week in Snohomish County Superior Court, charged in the murder of former cult member Dan Jess, who was shredded with six bullets on the night of March 29, 1998, at the front door of his Mountlake Terrace trailer. Neither has denied killing Jess. The jury is being asked to determine whether the pair were insane when they shot him, so deluded by the belief that they were carrying out God's will that they were incapable of seeing it as wrong. In another sense, the trial is a deeper look at the ways in which people can be driven to surrender their wills, their families and their wealth -- and can even be driven to kill -- through the seductive attraction of a cult. Sometime around 1990 in the suburbs around Everett, an intense, intelligent, articulate young man named Chris Turgeon appeared on the scene of some of the local charismatic Pentecostal churches. He claimed to have a gift for prophesying -- for sensing the will of God on earth, and divining its direction -- said Joe McIntyre, pastor of Word of His Grace Fellowship in Bothell. That, in and of itself, isn't a rarity in charismatic churches, where the congregations believe the Holy Spirit is alive and active on earth. Speaking in tongues, experiencing visions, or simply feeling a divine intervention is commonly part of the experience.

[another day]

Quote by: phoenix_fire Indeed. If a murder is committed, we expect to find a few screws loose. I have a rival quote: The translation goes: It is in Satan's best interests to manipulate from the shadows. He doesn't need to get people to worship him. He just needs to get people to not worship God. The OP incorrectly presumes that the two are merely competitors. It's not true. God is sovereign. The devil knows he can't really win this war. It's a war of attrition. The devil is sick and bitter and proud and vengeful and hateful and spiteful. And all he is really interested in is hurting God as much as possible by deceiving, twisting, perverting, defiling, and ultimately murdering as many of God's beloved children as he can in order to try to extract as much pain as possible from the Father at the sight of His children's suffering. Think of it this way: some person who hates you very much has kidnapped your toddler son. You go all over the world, to Hell and back trying to find him. In the meantime, this sick person has been raising (and sodomizing) your child. He doesn't want him to know about his father. When you finally do find him, your son says "who the hell are you? I don't have a father". Do you really think it would be in the kidnapper's best interests to reveal to the kid that he kidnapped him just to hurt the kid's father? Absolutely not. Then the kid would want to be with the father, and the revenge just wouldn't be as good. That might kinda give one an idea.

It's explanations like this that remind me what a magnificent and flawless piece of trickery that religion is. Everything to disprove anything that goes against it is contained within it's own framework.

[another day]

Quote by: phoenix_fire (How did I know it would be another one that equates Catholicism with the whole of Christianity?) It would be even more dismissed today. Remember David Copperfield? The Holy Spirit does not cause people to kill in the name of God. That's the other guys. And more often than not, that justification was just an excuse to burn, pillage, and rape. Even the priests that were in on it did so for power and influence. The advantage of the Holy Spirit and the fact that His presence is the biggest miracle cannot be easily explained if you don't know Him. I could lay out the theology, but it would be like explaining color to a blind person...no offense.

You see, this "holy spirit" thing you describe is nothing more then esoteric spirituality. Which in itself is a wonderful and beneficial thing. The problem lies in attaching scripture and dogmatic belief to it. Remove all of that, worship this holy essense, and take away all the rules and scripture and dogma. You will remove the problem of people abusing it for evil ends. If you really can connect with this spirit then you won't need the facade of the bible and the scripture to do so.

Why don't you just be a deist? Why dilute your belief with all this scripture and ritual? Is that not just clutter in the path of your connection to god? After all, most of it was written and rewritten by humans. Skip that. Just believe in god, not the bible, not the scripture, just god. Answer me on that, why is it so hard to believe in that way?