Deism

[Sejita]

My apologies if this has been brought up before. I looked a few pages back, and didn't see anything that I thought this could fit under.

So what's everyone's view on Deism?

For those who are unsure what Deism is, it is the belief in a God that came, created the Earth (not humans, we are simply an evolution that occured on the planet), then left to go do other things. It's also known as the clockmaker theory.

This is my personal belief, after learning about it during a class on the French Revolution, which is when Deism really came to the forefront.

[Domino]

Clockmakers generally have a reason for making a clock, even if not to look at. Did we get sold to the highest bidder?

If we're an accident, why not the Earth? Perhaps the universe was the crafted timepiece.

Does Deism imply predestination? It seems that, either we are predestined, or God has some degree of carelessness. Either every part of the mechanism has its place, or we were just slapped together, spackled and glued, set on a shelf to dry. Perhaps the goal is to make another white dwarf star, and the period from dust cloud through red giant is negligible.

If we suppose that there was an interested God who doesn't care anymore, it begs the question: for what did he ever care?

[Sejita]

There might be a branch of Deism that claims predestination. But the one I know of, and the one Voltaire wrote of is of a religion where the God created the Earth, and everything that has happened on it's surface since it's creation is not a result of him, but of it's own natural processes.

[Jack]

I fail to see the need for such a postulation. What's the value in a belief in such a god?

[Sejita]

Well it eliminates the idea of a God who just sits and watches you all day, deciding if you're good enough to enter his private club. It's basically an in between of Atheism and Christianity, in that Atheism removes any sort of (at least in my opinion) uniqueness to the human race, saying we just exist, and that's the end of it. However, Christianity makes no allowances for proven things like the dinosaurs, and evolution. Deism allows for the idea that, yeah, we were created by a being we will never truly understand, and he, or she, or it, is off doing other things. It's a complicated belief. Personally, I believe in an offshoot of it called "Pandeism" which I could explain if anyone was curious.

[Lullaby Chainer]

So.. what's the evidence?

[Sejita]

What's the evidence for any theistic belief, really? It's all faith, no hard, factual evidence to fall back on, just as there is none to fall back on for agnostics or atheists. The main proof for Deists is that we exist. That gives us a special degree of individuality, and uniqueness, being that as far as we know, we are the only sentient or intelligent life forms in the entire universe. But we also recognize that we live in a flawed world, full of bad people, disasters, etc, so whatever DID create us either isn't there to monitor what's going on, or made an imperfect world. Or both.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Sejita The main proof for Deists is that we exist.

The only possible way we could exist is through the creation of a magical being?

That gives us a special degree of individuality, and uniqueness, being that as far as we know, we are the only sentient or intelligent life forms in the entire universe.

"As far as we know"?

As in, we're capable but didn't find anything? We aren't capable, that's why we haven't found anything.

But by probability and the mind boggling number of planets out there.. other life is very likely.

But we also recognize that we live in a flawed world, full of bad people, disasters, etc, so whatever DID create us either isn't there to monitor what's going on, or made an imperfect world. Or both.

IF a magical being created us, sure.. or he's evil.. but then it would be a theistic god.


So basically, because we exist and things suck... a god created it.

That's a giant non-sequitur..

[Sejita]

It is a giant non-sequitur yes, if you strawman my argument like you did. Never once did I imply that a big magical being created everything, I just said a being beyond our knowledge. I find that atheistic people tend to belittle any indidication of a "being" having greater powers than that of man by saying things like "he's magical, LOL" or stuff like that.

As for being capable but not finding anything, I never said that. I said "as far as we know" as in we've looked, with the BEST of our abilites (which are YES, limited), but have found nothing.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Sejita It is a giant non-sequitur yes, if you strawman my argument like you did. Never once did I imply that a big magical being created everything

When you fail to address anything about this being.. I'm going to call it magical.

As for being capable but not finding anything, I never said that. I said "as far as we know" as in we've looked, with the BEST of our abilites (which are YES, limited), but have found nothing.

Our highly limited ability to look should factor in when you say.. "as far as we know there's no other intelligent life SOOO.."

So, why do you think a god made everything rather than something else happening?

By "solving" the problems of existence, you've only made a bigger problem of explaining this being.

[Sejita]

Belittling my argument isn't going to make it any less relevant. Absence of proof isn't proof of absence. Simply because I cannot prove this God exists, what he does, or why he did it, doesn't mean he doesn't exist, do things, and have a reason for them.

Why should our highly limited ability factor in to it? Each year the space program is taking strides to fuel the search for other life in the universe. Hell, a new telescope is being launched this summer. Though limited, it is, apparently, the best in the universe.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Sejita Belittling my argument isn't going to make it any less relevant. Absence of proof isn't proof of absence. Simply because I cannot prove this God exists, what he does, or why he did it, doesn't mean he doesn't exist, do things, and have a reason for them.

Certainly. But, unless you planned on preaching about deism.. you need to back up your beliefs.

Why should our highly limited ability factor in to it? Each year the space program is taking strides to fuel the search for other life in the universe. Hell, a new telescope is being launched this summer. Though limited, it is, apparently, the best in the universe.

You don't know that. We don't have the technology to make such examinations for intelligent life in our universe.. Once again you're just assuming that we're alone incredibly prematurely and ignoring the statistical probability.

And if we're alone, why does that evidence your god?

[Jack]

Atheism removes any sort of (at least in my opinion) uniqueness to the human race, saying we just exist, and that's the end of it.

Why is that so difficult to accept? Everything we see in nature points to that being the case. I don't need to believe I'm special, unique or superior to other life forms to enjoy the life I have. And when it's over, it's over, just like death is for every other living thing. Simply because the reality of nature can boggle my mind at times isn't a valid reason to invent superstitions that might make me feel better about the consequences about that reality.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Sejita So what's everyone's view on Deism?

Spineless atheists seeking social acceptance amongst theists.

[Sejita]

I really don't think it's a matter of spineless atheism. Especially since Atheism is a belief in NO God.

As per being special, I think we are. We are different than any other creature on this planet. We've created thriving civilizations.

[Jack]

We've created thriving civilizations.

So have ants and termites. And their societies predate our own.

[Sejita]

They are not nearly as complicated. They are not nearly as great as ours. We have explored places outside of our own planet, learned the very workings of our nature. Ants are not comparable to us.

[Jack]

By what standards are they judged? They've existed on this planet longer than humans. By that standard, they're far superior.

[Voluntary]

Quote by: Sejita I really don't think it's a matter of spineless atheism. Especially since Atheism is a belief in NO God.

By god you mean a vague, and useless definition that has changed meaning throughout human history between times and cultures. Not one definition of god has been built upon evidence and observation.

I am curious to hear your definition of god and what evidence do you use to support this definition.

[Sejita]

Quote by: Isherwood By what standards are they judged? They've existed on this planet longer than humans. By that standard, they're far superior.

I would disagree on the very notion that though they've been here longer, we've managed to usurp the throne as the most dominat creatures on the planet. That makes US superior.

As per my definition of God, it's subjective, and is of NO relevance to this topic.