Raised Christian

[DTB123]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Things we learn in school come from something you can actually go out and discover.. like the anatomy of a heart or the geological layers of an exposed cliff. The Bible points to.. the Bible.

The Bible points to Jesus. If you want to know how a Muslim gets to heaven; you would obviously have to ask them.

[Chris]

Quote by: phoenix_fire Oh wow. It's all so clear to me now. Oh wait. Is April Fools over? Darn. Not convinced.

Is it not true? Science is ever changing and open to editing. Religion is not. Religion edits itself to change with new discoveries. Whereas with science, you can say "I was wrong" and you can't do that with religion.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Zhavric It's "pointless" because you know you wouldn't be Christian. You'd be a muslim (or whatever they believe over there) because you know the only reason you're Christian now is because you were conditioned from an early age to believe Christianity is true. It's that simple.

I'm really not sure why this debate is still going on. We've already settled that people who are born to (insert religion X) grow up to be (religion X). You came up (pages ago) with some BS about not being able to discuss this.

Your parents chose your Christianity for you, Phoenix... just like your grandparents chose Christianity for your parents... on back to someone in your family who was converted from some other religion in a moment of emotional distress.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Zhavric I'm really not sure why this debate is still going on. We've already settled that people who are born to (insert religion X) grow up to be (religion X).

Well, that's not always true. Some people convert to other faiths, or even try to combine various faiths into one. It's like how a glam band might try its hand at reggae. It might not work out, but it can be interesting to try new things. Another example: I happen to know a black, gay Republican.

Grandpa h.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Chris Is it not true? Science is ever changing and open to editing. Religion is not. Religion edits itself to change with new discoveries. Whereas with science, you can say "I was wrong" and you can't do that with religion.

Religion is human interpretation of divinity so yes, it can change and be flexible over time.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Morality Games I don't need to prove it isn't the Christian God in particular. I already know he doesn't exist because the logic and science of biblical history, metaphysics, and physics is non-correspondent with the facts. I already know it can't be him, so it has to be something else. Since I can't casually relate the experience to a different being (a different God, or alien, or whatever), I am left to conclude it is probably self-induced.

Your assuming God must be exactly as described in texts. Texts are written by humans and very likely subject to whatever limited knowledge of the time and biases they might have held.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Zhavric I'm really not sure why this debate is still going on. We've already settled that people who are born to (insert religion X) grow up to be (religion X). You came up (pages ago) with some BS about not being able to discuss this. Your parents chose your Christianity for you, Phoenix... just like your grandparents chose Christianity for your parents... on back to someone in your family who was converted from some other religion in a moment of emotional distress.

No, Zhav, this has already been settled. Citing the fact that some people in countries like Afghanistan do, in fact, choose Christianity, I decided (after getting utterly tired of people like you pressing a non-question) to go on the offensive and say that yes: not only would I be a Christian, I'd be a saint. Now I'll issue you the same challenge I issued them, although you probably won't respond, just like you didn't on the nature/nurture question, but here goes: prove me wrong. Give indisputable evidence that I would not be a Christian. Rules of the game: your bigoted, stereotypical, narrow-minded personal opinion that you can only ever be the religion you were raised (or atheist) does not count as evidence. (it's already been disproved anyway) It counts as your prejudice showing and little or nothing else. So go for it. Prove me wrong beyond the shadow of a doubt.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Chris Is it not true? Science is ever changing and open to editing. Religion is not. Religion edits itself to change with new discoveries. Whereas with science, you can say "I was wrong" and you can't do that with religion.

Not exactly. Many religious like to act like that, but the scriptures can be quite difficult to interpret. This one guy, for instance, has been predicting the end of the world over and over again for like thirty years now. Each time it doesn't happen, he has to write a new book and come up with a new date. I first found out about him when all the Y2K stuff was going on in 1999. I picked up his book to see if it was another Y2K thing....apparently this one predicted the end to have happened in 1998. You'd think I'd've noticed something like that...

Anyone can be dogmatic about anything. I've proven this of Darwinism. And religion has its own way of using different hypotheses: argument and sometimes schism. Sure it's inefficient, but at least people are thinking.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: DTB123 The Bible points to Jesus. If you want to know how a Muslim gets to heaven; you would obviously have to ask them.

Aahahahahahahahaaaaa-oh wait.. you're bring serious..

Jesus is IN the Bible. We have no physical remnants of Jesus.

[DTB123]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Aahahahahahahahaaaaa-oh wait.. you're bring serious.. Jesus is IN the Bible. We have no physical remnants of Jesus.

Well; I think I said "the Bible points to Jesus." In that context; He is IN the Bible. In this context, it is precisely because He is there, that one can "find Jesus" today.

I am sure you will have a great "atheist" answer for that, but your comment re "no physical remnants of Jesus" is too superficial for belief.

My initial comment in this thread was to try and say that people are tending to say/think that "religion" meaning Christianity in this case either does not work for them, or it does. It has been my experience that it is not supposed to "work" for us, for if we really understand it, it is we who "work" for Him. You don't get love, you give it. The Bible points to Jesus Who is the ultimate example of this kind of love. This is the core of the Christian religion; but of course, it does not rhyme too well with the logic and reasoning of the cult of Atheism.

[ShadowFox]

PF, let me tell you something. If you are born in a region where the main religion is islam. Raised as a muslim. Taught many muslim traditions to the same extent you were taught about christianity, you and I both know that you wouldn't immediately become a devout christian. You may convert later in life, but you wouldn't become some saint. You know it's true.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: DTB123 Well; I think I said "the Bible points to Jesus." In that context; He is IN the Bible. In this context, it is precisely because He is there, that one can "find Jesus" today.

Which was in reply to me saying..

"Things we learn in school come from something you can actually go out and discover.. like the anatomy of a heart or the geological layers of an exposed cliff.

The Bible points to.. the Bible."

Context.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Halofan48 PF, let me tell you something. If you are born in a region where the main religion is islam. Raised as a muslim. Taught many muslim traditions to the same extent you were taught about christianity, you and I both know that you wouldn't immediately become a devout christian. You may convert later in life, but you wouldn't become some saint. You know it's true.

Can you prove that or does just reinstating the concept to yourself make it more true?

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Which was in reply to me saying.. "Things we learn in school come from something you can actually go out and discover.. like the anatomy of a heart or the geological layers of an exposed cliff. The Bible points to.. the Bible." Context.

Taken in context then what you learn in school not comparable to what is taught in the bible.

Granted there exist some poor mixing in Kansas and other midwest states but in the larger west and northeast states at least here we have each in its proper place, religion class and biology class. Both teach what they have to offer and don't comment on what the other class offers.

My religion classes taught biblical concepts, history of where stories might have come from (Including pagan myths!), other religions, etc.

My biology class taught evolution, cell biology, and chemistry taught chemistry, and take a guess what we learned in physics class.

The school very properly did not extend any of the above courses into areas where they have questionable say. Religion class didn't teach creationism and physics didn't bring up the bible.

[Morality Games]

You believe He doesn't exist. And seem pretty adamant: congratulations. You still can't read my mind.

But I have sound reasoning behind my assertion he does not exist. Any reasoning you provide must inevitably state that things are far more uncertain than science, logic, and history would suggest, or that you don't have any obligation to provide sound reasoning (which is obviously true with reference to yourself -- but if you want the right to be taken seriously, then you need weightier proofs).

For example, modern scholarship concludes for the bulk of their history Jews took the view there was no afterlife, except maybe a place called 'Sheol', a dark realm underneath the ocean where the shades of all dead men (good and evil alike) congregate upon death and experience ... nothing in particular. Jews took the major theme of Old Testament at face value, this being that the righteous received greatness on earth in exchange for respecting God, such as a blessed kingdom for one's people, an honorable position in that kingdom for oneself, the continuation of the family bloodline and acquisition of property, etc.

This was the perspective of Jews for centuries, yet a new religion claiming descent from Judaism does a 180 on this and other aspects of the theology surrounding God up to that point. Moreover, the '180' does not come all at once, but gradually develops over the course of several centuries following Christ's death, and all revisements are accountable not in a context of divine intervention, but rather the wants of the humans controlling the evolution of Christianity (and these can be construed as selfish and asinine).

There are countless instances where changes in the form and content of religion can be historically and psychologically assessed in light of human activity, but never divine. This holds true for all other religions.

Note: The reason I mention 'Sheol' is that emphasis on the afterlife is one of the driving themes of New Testament -- a stark contrast to Old Testament -- and that it is probably one of the most prolific examples of a lack of continunity in the progression of Abrahamic religion.

[Tycoon]

Why is it that you guys are putting so much stock in a two-thousand year old book? A book written during a time when people didn't know much about the universe and looked for other answers. A book that dismisses all logic and reasoning.

Could it possibly be that you were taught the ideas of that book at an impressionable age and that is why you defend it even as you type your reply?

[Morality Games]

Nothing pleases a man more than his worldview, and he places no limits on himself while protecting this; safer to attack a man's brother than his idealized perception of reality.

And:

While a man is driven to make sense of things, this is not synonymous with a search for truth; man always grasps at what ideas appear best to him, and if these are not the truth, he will not notice the difference, and if you point it out to him, he will disbelieve and resent you.

[DTB123]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Which was in reply to me saying.. "Things we learn in school come from something you can actually go out and discover.. like the anatomy of a heart or the geological layers of an exposed cliff. The Bible points to.. the Bible." Context.

In reference to context; what point are you trying to make re the OP of this thread, and your assertion of Jesus not being in the Bible? In your post #169, you appeared to be thinking that I was saying He is literally, physically in same? I did explain why I thought it was important to the topic at hand that the Bible points to Jesus. So far, you have not given any reason to doubt what I said, except for weak claims of your personal view. It would be easy to show anyone how the Bible points to Jesus. I wonder - how would you show us your side of this equation?

Lest you think I am going to cheat you; I can leave you with this thought: there are 932 verses from Mathew to The Revelation, which have the name "Jesus" right in them. That makes it pretty hard to deny that the Bible points to Jesus. There are many other examples of how the Bible points to Jesus.

But as I was saying; pertinent to this topic, as I studied the Bible and learned about how "religion works," I made some interesting discoveries which I have never yet seen an Atheist refute. Atheism is just another cult religion with all the familiar trappings.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: DTB123 In reference to context; what point are you trying to make re the OP of this thread

UHHH.. no. It was in reply to something someone else said.

and your assertion of Jesus not being in the Bible?

Who the hell made that assertion?

DTB, you obviously have no idea what's going on.. so let me just reply to one more thing.

Atheism is just another cult religion with all the familiar trappings.

Atheism does not fit any reasonable definition of religion.

Define religion.

[DTB123]

Quote by: Tycoon Why is it that you guys are putting so much stock in a two-thousand year old book? A book written during a time when people didn't know much about the universe and looked for other answers. A book that dismisses all logic and reasoning. Could it possibly be that you were taught the ideas of that book at an impressionable age and that is why you defend it even as you type your reply?

Actually, no one taught me anything such as you suggest here. I found a copy of the Bible in some garbage, and began to read it totally on my own. Afterwards, I did seek to learn more from others, but the Bible points us to Someone that works. Not "something" that works. I know you atheists don't like that; but maybe we should face the fact that for some who say "religion doesn't work;" they are just throwing certain things into the "garbage" that they really should hang onto and look into more.

One man's "junk" though, is always another man's treasure. For every person who throws away the Bible and religion; three more, as I did, find Jesus, and become Christians.