Raised Christian

[lsbskins1]

Quote by: phoenix_fire So you say. But that it was at all determinant deals a serious blow to your insistence of logical objectivity. Further, my explanation makes quite a lot of sense if you think about it.

Why does the fact that an aspect of someone's doubt was founded on a logical inconsistancy deal a blow to their logical objectivity? Let me explain what I mean. I was "raised" a Christian. My gradmother was a very serious Southern Baptist and I lived with her for about 2 years after my parents divorced, from the age of 3 to 5. We went to church consistently during this period. My mother did not go to church, but when we lived with her, she packed us off (my older sister and I) every Sunday until I was in about 3rd or 4th grade. When I was with my father in the summer, every Sunday, we went to church. I continued to go with him until I quit spending summers there. I am agnostic and I am a lesbian. But, although I would say part of my rejection of religious belief is based on the intollerence I heard coming from the pulpit, it was not "the" determining factor. The moment of real doubt came to me very early. I was in 2nd grade and we were learning about Native American "mythology" and my teacher said "Of course, we know now that these religious myths were simply ways of explaining things they could not understand." My brain said, "If that is true, what's to say our religious beliefs are not exactally the same thing, attempts at explaining things we don't understand." I have read a great deal about Christian history, studied other belief systems to a certain degree, and arrived at the conclusion that religion is like "comfort food". It really is nothing more than humans attempting to make themselves more comfortable with a cold and uncaring cosmos. That is my conclusion, not one I demand that you share. Religion fills a very real need for humans that will never go away. I also accept and understand I do not posses perfect knowledge. I could be wrong and any number of faiths could be the one that has it all figured out. But I considered myself an agnostic before I ever was willing to admit to myself that I was gay. So, being gay really does not effect my logical objectivity in this matter. It may for some, but it does not automtically do so.

[Morality Games]

So then atheism is just as influenced by upbringing.

It doesn't randomly appear from nowhere if that is what you mean, but you seem to be confusing raising your children to be something and being beaten up as equable. I assure you, they are not all that comparable.

Undoubtedly some atheists raise their children to be atheists, but most (myself included, although I am technically agnostic) are first-generation (first in the family). The value of not raising your children to be of the same view as yourself is not a solely atheistic anyway -- many people of many worldviews hold it.

The whole point of the thread is over why people blame a christian upbringing as a downfall.

Parenting should be about setting your kids up to find their own values, not passing along your own. Some value transfer is inevitable (what I write in this paragraph is itself a value), but for the most part, raising a child entails sending them out to find their own path and giving them the best walking stick you can provide, not finding the path for them. This is increasingly the modern view on the matter, but it contradicts Christian theology, which holds the good news must be spread ... they ought to have added, "by any means necessary", as Christians acknowledge few limitations on that instruction.

[Chris]

Quote by: phoenix_fire Chris, you're talking to someone who believes things happen for a reason. The idea of being born somewhere else is irrelevant.

so only the small percentage of humans lucky enough to be born in Jesusland (i.e. Red meat America) are worthy of heaven? What about the millions of people born in the middle east are they all wrong? Do they deserve to roast in hell because its "gods plan"? What about China? Is it "gods plan" to let billions of Chinese people choke in hell forever?

[phoenix_fire]

@Ibs: Not universally. But I know a little about the case which I was citing.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Chris so only the small percentage of humans lucky enough to be born in Jesusland (i.e. Red meat America) are worthy of heaven? What about the millions of people born in the middle east are they all wrong? Do they deserve to roast in hell because its "gods plan"? What about China? Is it "gods plan" to let billions of Chinese people choke in hell forever?

I can't believe you'd say something like that.

[DTB123]

I almost forgot about Volconvo Forums till I got an email reminding me you guys were here. This subject caught my attention first for some reason - so here goes.

One of the things that many posters seem to have alluded to, in one degree or another is that religion, (usually Christianity) once worked for them; but now it does not "work."

My experience has been that it always works, it never stops working; but the question is, (to me) how does it work; and does that "working" just change, or does it actually, stop, and go away?

My experience has served to broaden and deepen; yet there are many more unanswered questions today than ever; but this does not disuade my belief in God and the Bible.

I would be interested to hear from those who said that their Christianity did not work for them after a certain point. What do you mean when you say "work" as in, your Christianity did not/does not "work?" What did you/do you think it should "do?"

To me; my expectations of the scope and nature of this "work" that Christianity can affect how I will perceive it over the course of a number of years.

I had some times of wondering why my religion was not "working," as did all of the disciples of the Bible; until they discovered the truth that it doesn't always work for us, we have to work for it.

Take a look at when the disciples, and when they were "first called Christians." To me; this is a good account of not just "teaching" Christianity, but of witnessing of Christianity:

Act 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

If we examined why they were "first called Christinas" here; it may provide some answers to an age-old problem.

[Chris]

Quote by: phoenix_fire FINE! I would absolutely be a Christian if I was born in Afghanistan. I would be preaching and converting millions. I would automatically recognize Islam as untrue. I would be martyred to my faith. NOW. Prove me wrong.

no you wouldnt and you know it. christian missionaries get beheaded in Afghanistan. So you must admit to not having any control in your birthplace and concede that people are the religion of their parents -vallidating our assertion that you were indoctrinated.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Chris no you wouldnt and you know it. christian missionaries get beheaded in Afghanistan. So you must admit to not having any control in your birthplace and concede that people are the religion of their parents -vallidating our assertion that you were indoctrinated.

Nope. People do and I'm gonna say I'm one of them. Throughout time and space, people have been born into places that are hostile to Christianity and they've decided to believe anyway. These people have happily walked into gladiators' rings, stood up untied at the stake, laid their heads on the chopping block, and stared down the wrong end of the barrel of a gun because of the strength of their convictions. I'm gonna say that I'd be one of those people, and there's not a single argument you can make that would satisfactorily disprove my assertion.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: HelioPrime So then atheism is just as influenced by upbringing. The whole point of the thread is over why people blame a christian upbringing as a downfall.

I was kidding.. read what I said, it's 100% nonsensical.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: phoenix_fire I can't believe you'd say something like that.

The Bible's hard to swallow, huh?

[Chris]

Quote by: phoenix_fire I can't believe you'd say something like that.

why? its a valid question which you seemed to have just dodged.

Quote by: phoenix_fire Nope. People do and I'm gonna say I'm one of them. Throughout time and space, people have been born into places that are hostile to Christianity and they've decided to believe anyway. These people have happily walked into gladiators' rings, stood up untied at the stake, laid their heads on the chopping block, and stared down the wrong end of the barrel of a gun because of the strength of their convictions. I'm gonna say that I'd be one of those people, and there's not a single argument you can make that would satisfactorily disprove my assertion.

and how did those people hear about christianity in the first place? imported from an outside source.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer The Bible's hard to swallow, huh?

Nope, but people's intentionally misunderstood views of it are. I would have thought that he would have a little more integrity, rather than saying something so...contrived.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Chris and how did those people hear about christianity in the first place? imported from an outside source.

As is 99% of everything you learn. Otherwise, there would be no need for schools.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: lindsay7 Do you have a link to those studies, or to the Mensa Magazine article that discusses them. Or can you direct me to the part of that Tearfund link that you are refering to.. it's 336 pages.

page 10

I don't know if Mensa Magazine has their articles online..

Though, most of those 43 studies are online.. I guess I could dig em all up for you. . . _._

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: phoenix_fire Nope, but people's intentionally misunderstood views of it are. I would have thought that he would have a little more integrity, rather than saying something so...contrived.

So the Bible is just joking when it says you need to accept Jesus to get in heaven?

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Chris why? its a valid question which you seemed to have just dodged.

It's a loaded question, and not only do I disagree with the assumptions, but taking on all the intentionally specious elements of it would effectively derail this topic.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer So the Bible is just joking when it says you need to accept Jesus to get in heaven?

Nope.

[Morality Games]

Nope, but people's intentionally misunderstood views of it are.

"cough"

Irony of this statement aside, is it even psychologically possible for a prolonged misunderstanding to be an intentional misunderstanding? And he has thought like that for quite awhile.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: phoenix_fire As is 99% of everything you learn. Otherwise, there would be no need for schools.

Things we learn in school come from something you can actually go out and discover.. like the anatomy of a heart or the geological layers of an exposed cliff.

The Bible points to.. the Bible.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: phoenix_fire Nope.

Then how the hell does a Muslim get into Heaven?