Raised Christian

[phoenix_fire]

I didn't say you did. The fact that you didn't was exactly my point.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: HelioPrime I guess he must be a fluke then? because according to Zhav and LBC your faith is determined by your birth.

Actually, no.

NEITHER of us have said that.. though I bet it would be SOO much easier if you could make up shit and then respond to your own made up shit, huh?

We've both asserted that it plays a large part. The proof in this is that religion is largely demographic.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: phoenix_fire I didn't say you did. The fact that you didn't was exactly my point.

I was replying to you saying that there's no reasonable way to guess with ANY accuracy what someone born into a muslim family in an extremist islamic society is going to be.

That's just plain retarded.

Your point that "I would never make a statement of absolutes" is you trying to cover your ass that you made a rather dumb statement.. You did more than just say you can't be certain, which I agree with, you specifically said it can't be answered with ANY accuracy.

[lindsay7]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Actually, no. NEITHER of us have said that.. though I bet it would be SOO much easier if you could make up shit and then respond to your own made up shit, huh? We've both asserted that it plays a large part. The proof in this is that religion is largely demographic.

Quote by: Zhavric It's "pointless" because you know you wouldn't be Christian. You'd be a muslim (or whatever they believe over there) because you know the only reason you're Christian now is because you were conditioned from an early age to believe Christianity is true. It's that simple.

(^ bold italic emphasise mine)

HelioPrime didn't 'make up shit'. Clearly that was the assertion being made, at least by Zhavric.

Anyways, I don't think anyone's denying that the culture you grow up in influences your beliefs in all things. But it isn't the deciding factor, in any culture, but especially in ours with all it's diversity and free information. Adults decide on their own. Or do you really think that athiests are the only ones who can think independently of how they were raised? Because that's what's bullshit.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Actually, no. NEITHER of us have said that.. though I bet it would be SOO much easier if you could make up shit and then respond to your own made up shit, huh? We've both asserted that it plays a large part. The proof in this is that religion is largely demographic.

I got beat to the punch lol

Your correct on your part. You said HIGHLY likely which is probably true.

Zhav said: you know the only reason you're Christian now is because you were conditioned from an early age to believe Christianity is true. It's that simple.

So yes, he did say in a simple way that birth determines religion.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer I was replying to you saying that there's no reasonable way to guess with ANY accuracy what someone born into a muslim family in an extremist islamic society is going to be. That's just plain retarded. Your point that "I would never make a statement of absolutes" is you trying to cover your ass that you made a rather dumb statement.. You did more than just say you can't be certain, which I agree with, you specifically said it can't be answered with ANY accuracy.

Nope, sorry. If you can't prove that I wouldn't be the Afghan Francis of Assisi, then I deem your point to be invalid. I dare you to prove that I wouldn't.

To refresh everyone, my response to the OP is irritation that atheistic bigots seem to assume that everyone who disagrees with them is incapable of thinking for themselves. My rebuttal to the question of different circumstances is that even though I cannot make a personal statement of pure speculation on the matter, it has been proven that other people born into such circumstances do make different decisions. This disproves the idea that everyone reacts the same to the same circumstance.

Continue.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: HelioPrime I got beat to the punch lol Your correct on your part. You said HIGHLY likely which is probably true. Zhav said: you know the only reason you're Christian now is because you were conditioned from an early age to believe Christianity is true. It's that simple. So yes, he did say in a simple way that birth determines religion.

He was talking directly to PF.

I don't think we can assume that of PF, but he STILL never said what you said he said.

Quote by: Zhavric People who convert later in life do so due to the emotionally charged arguments of Christianity. Also, the lion share of these individuls undergo some emotional experience that leaves them in some way vulnerable (note that this doesn't always have to be a tragedy. It could be a really positive experience).

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: phoenix_fire Nope, sorry. If you can't prove that I wouldn't be the Afghan Francis of Assisi, then I deem your point to be invalid. I dare you to prove that I wouldn't.

Wtf is your problem?

You said THIS:
Asking me what I would do if I was born in Afghanistan is pointless. Asking me what someone else would do is fruitless. Asking me about the combination of both circumstances is entirely beyond the realm of things that I could reasonably be expected to answer with any accuracy.

I replied with THIS:
Someone born into a radical Muslim family in an extremist Islamic society is HIGHLY likely to become a Muslim. I can say that with high probability accuracy. Stop kidding yourself..

Where the HELL are you getting this crap about my point being invalid if I can't prove you wouldn't be the Afghan Francis of Assisi?

[phoenix_fire]

Because the overall point is that birth is not absolutely deterministic in one's cosmology. My point is that it is impossible to say what someone would be like if they were born into a given circumstance. I had become irritated with repeated allegations that I was dodging the question, so I took the offensive and asked those who disagree to prove or disprove an affirmative statement of my own.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: phoenix_fire Because the overall point is that birth is not absolutely deterministic in one's cosmology. My point is that it is impossible to say what someone would be like if they were born into a given circumstance. I had become irritated with repeated allegations that I was dodging the question, so I took the offensive and asked those who disagree to prove or disprove an affirmative statement of my own.

I don't think any atheist here has said environment is the only reason someone's their particular faith.

We've said it's a large reason.

[lindsay7]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer I don't think any atheist here has said environment is the only reason someone's their particular faith. We've said it's a large reason.

Environment is an influence on everyone, including athiests. Unless you think you would still be an athiest had you grown up in a 'radical Muslim family in an extremist Islamic society'?

The environment influences to varying degrees depending on the individual and the availability of different ideas in their culture. To imply that athiests in our culture are capable of thinking independantly of how they were raised, more so than the Christians of our society, is folly.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer I don't think any atheist here has said environment is the only reason someone's their particular faith. We've said it's a large reason.

Untrue. Although some have implied it, Zhav has come right out and said that environment is the only reason that someone [aka myself] is a Christian.

Quote by: Zhav The rest of us get a little peaved when you deny the fact that the only reason you believe in a self-fathering cosmic jewish zombie is because you were tricked into believing from an age before you knew any better.

(emphasis mine)

That's a pretty much word-for-word contradiction of your argument.

And since I've repeatedly asserted that my belief was the result of a conscious decision, the only conclusion that one can come to from reading his dogged attempts to deny that fact is that he, in fact, does not believe it to be possible.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: lindsay7 Environment is an influence on everyone, including athiests. Unless you think you would still be an athiest had you grown up in a 'radical Muslim family in an extremist Islamic society'?

I'd be a Muslim, yes.

Although I was brought up as a Christian, thankfully my father wasn't as extreme as the Muslims in the middle east.

At about 13, I started reading and examining my religion and others.. and concluded that religion was bullshit because of the evidence available to me.. and not just what my environment wanted me to think.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: phoenix_fire Untrue. Although some have implied it, Zhav has come right out and said that environment is the only reason that someone [aka myself] is a Christian. (emphasis mine) That's a pretty much word-for-word contradiction of your argument. And since I've repeatedly asserted that my belief was the result of a conscious decision, the only conclusion that one can come to from reading his dogged attempts to deny that fact is that he, in fact, does not believe it to be possible.

Since when are you every theist in the world? Ego, much? He said YOU are a Christian because of your environment.

[lindsay7]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer I'd be a Muslim, yes. Although I was brought up as a Christian, thankfully my father wasn't as extreme as the Muslims in the middle east. At about 13, I started reading and examining my religion and others.. and concluded that religion was bullshit because of the evidence available to me.. and not just what my environment wanted me to think.

Excellent. I did the exact same thing at age 13.

So are we in agreeance that it is wrong to assume that adult athiests in our society are more capable of thinking independantly from how they were raised than adult Christians in our society?

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: lindsay7 Excellent. I did the exact same thing at age 13. So are we in agreeance that it is wrong to assume that adult athiests in our society are more capable of thinking independantly from how they were raised than adult Christians in our society?

Uh.. all I have until I see statistics is anecdotal evidence.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Since when are you every theist in the world? Ego, much? He said YOU are a Christian because of your environment.

Eeeeeeeeeehnt. You said:

I don't think any atheist here has said environment is the only reason someone's their particular faith.

(emphasis mine)

So I proved that an atheist said that environment was the only reason someone (someone being me) had a particular faith. "Someone" doesn't mean "everyone". It only takes one example to constitute "someone".

Goodness. I'm used to people making me repeat myself. Now I have to deal with people making me repeat them? *sigh*

[lindsay7]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Uh.. all I have until I see statistics is anecdotal evidence.

Anecdotal evidence supporting a view of bigotry? Athiests hate it when Christians have a bigoted view about them, and rightly so. I assume you hate this as well? Try not to do the same thing.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Uh.. all I have until I see statistics is anecdotal evidence.

How exactly would you determine if someone is an intelligent thinker or not?

[Lullaby Chainer]

@PF
My bad. I meant rather what I had been saying before.. that was a slip up.

Quote by: lindsay7 Anecdotal evidence supporting a view of bigotry? Athiests hate it when Christians have a bigoted view about them, and rightly so. I assume you hate this as well? Try not to do the same thing.

I didn't even tell you what my anecdotal evidence is.. because it's not valid.

But if you're going to make accusations, all I've noticed is that every atheist I know in real life was brought up in a Christian family and every Christian I know in real life was brought up in a Christian family.

Chill.

Quote by: HelioPrime How exactly would you determine if someone is an intelligent thinker or not?

-shrugs- That's hard to say..

What makes you bring it up?