Raised Christian

[phoenix_fire]

The question is asked and answered, Tycoon. Naturally, I can speak toward my personal state of mind but not someone else's. Asking me what I would do if I was born in Afghanistan is pointless. Asking me what someone else would do is fruitless. Asking me about the combination of both circumstances is entirely beyond the realm of things that I could reasonably be expected to answer with any accuracy. Since some people that are born in Afghanistan do become Christians, we know that it is possible. That is the closest approximation I can give you.

[ChaChynga]

And he was vague too, as were you supposed to have been born an AFGI or as YOUR RACE as you are now. There's more to it too, but the question is designed to steer one off the path and run you down a rabbit trail in order to cast doubt. That's all.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: phoenix_fire Well, Zhav, I was trying not to mention you by name.

I know. Then you'd have to address the fact that my arguments use the same set of sound logical rules for all claims while you use an armful of fallacies in yours. Care to discuss that or are you going to continue to evade the issue?

[Zhavric]

Quote by: phoenix_fire The question is asked and answered, Tycoon. Naturally, I can speak toward my personal state of mind but not someone else's. Asking me what I would do if I was born in Afghanistan is pointless. Asking me what someone else would do is fruitless.

It's "pointless" because you know you wouldn't be Christian. You'd be a muslim (or whatever they believe over there) because you know the only reason you're Christian now is because you were conditioned from an early age to believe Christianity is true. It's that simple.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Zhavric I know. Then you'd have to address the fact that my arguments use the same set of sound logical rules for all claims while you use an armful of fallacies in yours. Care to discuss that or are you going to continue to evade the issue?

Evade? Hardly. You use that every time, and the more you do so (especially against my arguments) the less anyone tends to want to believe you. And as far as consistent rules, well, I've already addressed that. Nature or nurture, Zhav?

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Zhavric It's "pointless" because you know you wouldn't be Christian. You'd be a muslim (or whatever they believe over there) because you know the only reason you're Christian now is because you were conditioned from an early age to believe Christianity is true. It's that simple.

Zhav, thanks for your continued support, but you've already sufficiently proven my point about bigotry and denial in your previous post.

No one can speculate on what they'd be like if they were born into different circumstances. The fact is that people born into a circumstance can sometimes have a vast plethora of varying responses to the same circumstance. I could tell you that I'd still be a Christian, and I could not prove it, but neither could you disprove it. (I'd have a bit of an edge in the credibility arena, however, because I know me and you don't.) The "what if" scenario is a pointless, asinine diversion from the topic at hand. There is no logical way to come to a satisfactory, testable, answer for the question.

In fact, read ChaChynga's response.

[Tycoon]

In fact, read ChaChynga's response.

All of ChaChynga's other posts are trollish, and the only reason you don't see it in this post is because it supports your argument.

Zhav, thanks for your continued support, but you've already sufficiently proven my point about bigotry and denial in your previous post.

If anybody's master at bigotry and denial it's a Christian.

No one can speculate on what they'd be like if they were born into different circumstances. The fact is that people born into a circumstance can sometimes have a vast plethora of varying responses to the same circumstance. I could tell you that I'd still be a Christian, and I could not prove it, but neither could you disprove it. (I'd have a bit of an edge in the credibility arena, however, because I know me and you don't.) The "what if" scenario is a pointless, asinine diversion from the topic at hand. There is no logical way to come to a satisfactory, testable, answer for the question.

No, it's a perfectly reasonable hypothetical circumstance. The only reason you won't answer this one is because it catches you with your pants down.

[lindsay7]

If I was raised a Muslim, in a Muslim culture, I would probably have Muslim religious beliefs. But what does it matter. What's important is to treat others as you would want to be treated. It doesn't matter what religion you are, as long as you love others. No religion, including Christianity, knows the whole truth about God. We'll all find out in the afterlife.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: phoenix_fire Evade? Hardly.

I know. Your arguments' shortcomings are so plainly obvious, I don't know why you even try.

Nature or nurture, Zhav?

Do you even know what you're asking?

Zhav, thanks for your continued support, but you've already sufficiently proven my point about bigotry and denial in your previous post.

Phoenix, someday you'll learn that you have to provide some substance to your posts before you can attempt to deliver cleverness. Work on that.

No one can speculate on what they'd be like if they were born into different circumstances.

What a dumb thing to say? You can't speculate that if you were born in France you'd be fluent in French? You can't speculate that if you'd been born to Muslim parents intent on indoctrinating their child into the Muslim ways that you'd be on your knees for Allah? Is that really your argument? Really?

Quote by: lindsay7 But what does it matter.[sic]

It proves that people don't actually choose their religion. They just adopt the one their parents force down their throats.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Tycoon If anybody's master at bigotry and denial it's a Christian. .

Gross over assumptions. At what point did you stop being a child hurt by your parents homosexual viewpoint and become a rampant christian hater.

The are plenty of christians who believe in predestination (Lutherans). They full accept the world is not perfect and salvation is predetermined for the select, while others must stay in good acting faith because those others are born with sin already and likely to stray from God. I'm not saying PF is a member of this branch, but to ask someone from that faith the what if question about birth they would have no answer because they know they were already selected to become a christian.

[Lullaby Chainer]

There's a reason why creation myths are demographic and theories on how the dinosaurs became extinct are not.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: phoenix_fire The question is asked and answered, Tycoon. Naturally, I can speak toward my personal state of mind but not someone else's. Asking me what I would do if I was born in Afghanistan is pointless. Asking me what someone else would do is fruitless. Asking me about the combination of both circumstances is entirely beyond the realm of things that I could reasonably be expected to answer with any accuracy.

You can't reasonably be expected to answer with any accuracy?

You have got to be kidding me..


Someone born into a radical Muslim family in an extremist Islamic society is HIGHLY likely to become a Muslim. I can say that with high probability accuracy. Stop kidding yourself..

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: lindsay7 If I was raised a Muslim, in a Muslim culture, I would probably have Muslim religious beliefs. But what does it matter.

Then why do people have such convictions in their faith?

It's just plain silly.

Whenever someone at school finds out I'm an atheist.. they usually give me a hard time.

Wouldn't it help if they'd realize being a Christian of faith is usually a matter of chance?


Before a Muslim flies a plane into a building.

Wouldn't it help if he realized being a Muslim of faith was a matter of chance?


The problem for theists is.. The only way you're going to keep a religion going is if you bestow a faith mindset in children. This mindset that their beliefs are right just because and that they don't need evidence. Children don't need evidence to believe their parents.. that's why this time period is so crucial for theists to propagate their bullshit.

[lindsay7]

Quote by: Zhavric It proves that people don't actually choose their religion. They just adopt the one their parents force down their throats.

People are raised to believe all kinds of things, including athiesm. Is an adult athiest who was raised in an athiest family only 'adopting the belief that his parents forced down his throat'? What about someone who grew up with an athiest father and Christian mother? Can anyone think independantly as an adult? Or only those who end up choosing beliefs that you agree with possess this skill?

The truth is, that my parents didn't force my belief down my throat. I was raised Christian, but stopped going to church at age 13 because I didn't believe, and my parents didn't force me. They stopped going to church themselves, and didn't talk to me about religion after that. As a teenager, I looked into other belief systems, but decided I was athiest. I'm 22 years old now, and I've only just started believing in God. Both my athiesm, and my belief, were my own choice. I haven't lived with my parents in years, and the decision had nothing to do with them. In fact, they've become agnostic.
I have many beliefs that are completely different than those I was raised with as a child. For example, my political views. In all things, what I've ended up believing as an adult, has more to do with my life experiences as an adult, than how I was raised.

That's not to say that people can't be raised to believe certain things. But in our culture, where we are surrounded by diversity and an abundance of free information about all kinds of belief systems to choose from, how we were raised by our parents has much less influence over our adult beliefs than it would for perhaps someone who was born in an isolated tribe in the middle of the jungle, or in a small village without electricity and outside influence in Afghanistan.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Tycoon All of ChaChynga's other posts are trollish, and the only reason you don't see it in this post is because it supports your argument.

Well, I haven't really read many other posts from this user, but I try to give people credit when they do something right.

If anybody's master at bigotry and denial it's a Christian.

Spoken like a true religious bigot.

No, it's a perfectly reasonable hypothetical circumstance. The only reason you won't answer this one is because it catches you with your pants down.

Not at all. Some people born in Afghanistan become Christians. I said that earlier. That proves it can be done. And that is the closest approximation I can give you without stepping into the area of pure speculation.

But since you and Zhav won't let this die like the dead end it is:

FINE! I would absolutely be a Christian if I was born in Afghanistan. I would be preaching and converting millions. I would automatically recognize Islam as untrue. I would be martyred to my faith.

NOW. Prove me wrong.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer You can't reasonably be expected to answer with any accuracy? You have got to be kidding me.. Someone born into a radical Muslim family in an extremist Islamic society is HIGHLY likely to become a Muslim. I can say that with high probability accuracy. Stop kidding yourself..

Even you won't make an absolute statement of that nature.

Do you know what that means!?!

By your own admission, at the very least some people come to faith as the result of *drumroll*

their own personal decision.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: HelioPrime Gross over assumptions. At what point did you stop being a child hurt by your parents homosexual viewpoint and become a rampant christian hater. The are plenty of christians who believe in predestination (Lutherans). They full accept the world is not perfect and salvation is predetermined for the select, while others must stay in good acting faith because those others are born with sin already and likely to stray from God. I'm not saying PF is a member of this branch, but to ask someone from that faith the what if question about birth they would have no answer because they know they were already selected to become a christian.

I have a complicated view on that matter. It involves thinking of time in a totally non-linear way, and it would totally derail the thread to go into it. But it is a strict matter of logic that you just can't say what you'd be like if you were born into different circumstances. Some people behave predictably, and some people react much differently. You absolutely cannot say that given x circumstance, any person would react in y manner.

[HelioPrime]

True enough.

I believe one of the most outspoken critics of Islam was in fact raised under that faith. Now he is a converted Christian and a target of extremist of his former faith.

I guess he must be a fluke then? because according to Zhav and LBC your faith is determined by your birth.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Zhavric I know. Your arguments' shortcomings are so plainly obvious, I don't know why you even try.

You're not even bleedin' addressing the argument. You're not even b*tching about what you were b*tching about before. How can you even talk about the "shortcomings" of my arguments when you don't even make one, much less one related to the one I made? All you ever do in reaction to a thoughtful argument is parrot from a list of canned snarky insults and accuse the other person of not saying anything, when in reality, you're the only one who's not making any points.

So unless you've got something of substance to contribute....leave off.

Do you even know what you're asking?

Yes, yes I do. Are ya' goin' to answer the question or not, Zhav? Ya' know, this is a great opportunity to do that "actually addressing the argument" thing I've been telling you about.

Phoenix, someday you'll learn that you have to provide some substance to your posts before you can attempt to deliver cleverness. Work on that.

Pointless posturing. Not worth any further acknowledgment.

What a dumb thing to say? You can't speculate that if you were born in France you'd be fluent in French? You can't speculate that if you'd been born to Muslim parents intent on indoctrinating their child into the Muslim ways that you'd be on your knees for Allah? Is that really your argument? Really?

That's not the same. Not even close. That's like saying "If you were born in America, you'd be Christian". Where were you born, Zhav? By your logic, I probably shouldn't speak Spanish or Japanese. But I do. You of all people should know that even if you are born surrounded by something, you can individually choose to think differently. Or is your atheism just the result of chance?

It proves that people don't actually choose their religion. They just adopt the one their parents force down their throats.

Already disproved.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: phoenix_fire Even you won't make an absolute statement of that nature.

Wtf? I didn't. I said it's highly likely that someone born into a radical Muslim family in a extremist Islamic society is going to become a Muslim.