Raised Christian

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: HelioPrime Taken in context then what you learn in school not comparable to what is taught in the bible. Granted there exist some poor mixing in Kansas and other midwest states but in the larger west and northeast states at least here we have each in its proper place, religion class and biology class. Both teach what they have to offer and don't comment on what the other class offers. My religion classes taught biblical concepts, history of where stories might have come from (Including pagan myths!), other religions, etc. My biology class taught evolution, cell biology, and chemistry taught chemistry, and take a guess what we learned in physics class. The school very properly did not extend any of the above courses into areas where they have questionable say. Religion class didn't teach creationism and physics didn't bring up the bible.

Well, I admire that school..

[Tycoon]

One man's "junk" though, is always another man's treasure. For every person who throws away the Bible and religion; three more, as I did, find Jesus, and become Christians.

Actually no. The percentage of persons claiming to be atheist has been steadily increasing.

[Morality Games]

Afterwards, I did seek to learn more from others, but the Bible points us to Someone that works. Not "something" that works. I know you atheists don't like that; but maybe we should face the fact that for some who say "religion doesn't work;"

Religion certainly does work -- I would go so far as to say Christians work their religion to death. They derive many advantages from their faith. The output of religious values is very high. So I don't say religion doesn't work -- what I do is point out it is risky to base your beliefs on something not in line with the probabilities. Also, while their religion gives Christians everything they want, it is still debatable whether their desires are authentic (valid meaning).

they are just throwing certain things into the "garbage" that they really should hang onto and look into more.

I don't think anybody should stop being what they are on basis of nothing, since that is just an opening for them to go back (some agnostics I know of went back to being Christians for lack of any reason not to be Christian -- not that they looked very hard), but being well-studied in the matter, I am unworried about a crippling lack of evidence coming up from out of nowhere to discredit my perspective on life. That is the fear of religious people, hence the abstract and very strange reasoning they employ to safeguard their faith.

One man's "junk" though, is always another man's treasure. For every person who throws away the Bible and religion; three more, as I did, find Jesus, and become Christians.

If you'd found the text of most any other religion in that garbage, I wonder if you would have been equally impressed with the arguments of moralists not Jesus?

[Chris]

Quote by: HelioPrime Religion is human interpretation of divinity so yes, it can change and be flexible over time.

you are the perfect example and thanks for pointing this out. I believe you are confusing two different things. You, as an old earth creationist, have modified your interpretation of the bible so that the bible can still be true. Was the earth created in 7 days? No. but you modify your own rules. Its like you are trying to push a square peg through a circular hole. Whereas with science, we observe that the hole is circular and we modify our peg from square to circular and it fits.

[Morality Games]

you are the perfect example and thanks for pointing this out. I believe you are confusing two different things. You, as an old earth creationist, have modified your interpretation of the bible so that the bible can still be true. Was the earth created in 7 days? No. but you modify your own rules. Its like you are trying to push a square peg through a circular hole. Whereas with science, we observe that the hole is circular and we modify our peg from square to circular and it fits.

Indeed, I think it is ironic Christians tremble with fright at the thought of an anti-foundationalist like myself existing while they embody the philosophy at its worst. "Under what logical criteria is the Bible true?" asks the skeptic and the religious respond, "Under whatsoever qualifications are necessary for it to never be wrong."

[DTB123]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer UHHH.. no. It was in reply to something someone else said. Who the hell made that assertion? DTB, you obviously have no idea what's going on.. so let me just reply to one more thing. Atheism does not fit any reasonable definition of religion. Define religion.

Well; I don't think you are singing me no lullabyeee. But that's OK. You asked me to define religion, when you just did? The only question that remains is how credible your definition is. To me Atheism is just another cult religion unless you can prove otherwise.

[DTB123]

Quote by: Morality Games Indeed, I think it is ironic Christians tremble with fright at the thought of an anti-foundationalist like myself existing while they embody the philosophy at its worst.

I am far from "trembling with fright" at your rickety self-assertions; but I am laughing.

[Tycoon]

Well; I don't think you are singing me no lullabyeee. But that's OK. You asked me to define religion, when you just did? The only question that remains is how credible your definition is. To me Atheism is just another cult religion unless you can prove otherwise.

I don't see a definition of religion in there.

[DTB123]

Quote by: Tycoon I don't see a definition of religion in there.

LOL, guess you are looking in the wrong place.

[Lullaby Chainer]

DTB, if you're going to call atheism a religion.. we need to know what kind of f*cked up definition of religion you have.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Halofan48 PF, let me tell you something. If you are born in a region where the main religion is islam. Raised as a muslim. Taught many muslim traditions to the same extent you were taught about christianity, you and I both know that you wouldn't immediately become a devout christian. You may convert later in life, but you wouldn't become some saint. You know it's true.

No, I don't. I have offered examples where saints and martyrs grew up with a different religion and came to believe in Christianity. Sure I'd have to convert, but everyone does, even if for many it's really early on. You're conceding, now, that I would be a Christian, but you're haggling over the degree? What is your justification? Do you have some standard or rubric to attach a value to the intensity of my devotion? No?

Actually, it could be said that those who have a faith that is persecuted by their surroundings are required to strengthen and cleave to that faith in order to survive. It is easy to change your mind when you're on the wrong end of a gun barrel, but much more difficult to stick by an unpopular conviction. As a matter of fact, I put it to you that it would be far more likely for me to become a saint if I was a Christian living in that kind of environment.

[ShadowFox]

Look, i didn't "concede" that you'd become a christian. I said it was possible. Also, in some countries, i really don't think you can. In fact, isn't there a country that has people shot on site if preaching or wearing religious symbols that aren't it's religion? I doubt you'll know much about Christianity there PF...

[DTB123]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer DTB, if you're going to call atheism a religion.. we need to know what kind of f*cked up definition of religion you have.

And what would that prove if I did give you a definition of religion? All you would do is to come up with an opposing definition. My comment re the religious cult of atheism was really parenthetical to the subject at hand; referring to the tone of certain replies. If you are an atheist; you too have had a religion chosen for you; or you used it to replace the religion you used to have. Your atheism was taught to you by others, the same as is being said about Christians, and why they grow up Christian.

One definition of faith from the Word Web Dictionary is as follows:

Loyalty or allegiance to a cause or a person as in "keep the faith"; "they broke faith with their investors"

"Loyalty or allegiance to a cause" perfectly describes Atheism, for it really takes a lot of faith to be one. Your faith is your religion.

Take the word religion as described at Wikepdia:

Wikepdia: A religion is a set of beliefs and practices often organized around supernatural and moral claims, and often codified as prayer, ritual, and religious law. Religion also encompasses ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and mystic experience. The term "religion" refers to both the personal practices related to communal faith and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared conviction.

Sounds like there could definitely be a fit with Atheism here; although they claim to not believe in a divine power; their shared and personal convictions do constitute a faith, and a religion. You follow your convictions religiously here on this board and prove me right with every post you make.

Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

[ShadowFox]

Um, i became an atheist of my own will, without foreign influence from atheists. I thought the beliefs of my peers seemed too much like stories of the tooth fairy and the like.

Also, if I have "faith" in a member of a group to do something, does that mean my religion is my friend?

[DTB123]

Quote by: Halofan48 Um, i became an atheist of my own will, without foreign influence from atheists. I thought the beliefs of my peers seemed too much like stories of the tooth fairy and the like. Also, if I have "faith" in a member of a group to do something, does that mean my religion is my friend?

Is your future your "friend?"

1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

[ShadowFox]

Well, my friend will likely be part of my future, especially if it's a long project. Or, better yet, lets say your working with a group of scientists on a 4 year project. You have faith in your fellow scientists to do what they need to. Does that mean they are your religion?

Also, a bible quote isn't a good argument. It's like me quoting The Chronicles of Narnia, since many don't consider the bible as truth.

[DTB123]

Quote by: Halofan48 Well, my friend will likely be part of my future, especially if it's a long project. Or, better yet, lets say your working with a group of scientists on a 4 year project. You have faith in your fellow scientists to do what they need to. Does that mean they are your religion? Also, a bible quote isn't a good argument. It's like me quoting The Chronicles of Narnia, since many don't consider the bible as truth.

You obviously want to strain at gnats with the English Language here; so that's fine with me. My understanding thereof has been explained.

In regards to your comment re the Bible quote I posted; well; your comment makes very little sense. You said that it does me no good to quote the Bible here; because "many don't consider it truth." Why don't you show the audience how we would do that? Show us how to quote something here that would be universally considered as truth.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Chris you are the perfect example and thanks for pointing this out. I believe you are confusing two different things. You, as an old earth creationist, have modified your interpretation of the bible so that the bible can still be true. Was the earth created in 7 days? No. but you modify your own rules. Its like you are trying to push a square peg through a circular hole. Whereas with science, we observe that the hole is circular and we modify our peg from square to circular and it fits.

Your the one comparing two different systems. One based off belief and one based of fact.

Religion is based of personal experience and interpretation.

Science is fact and knowledge.

Everyone knows or should understand evolution. Some of us just choose to take our belief and see that as a long process clearly directed and intended by a higher power. The creation story spread out over time. The writers of the bible had no concept of any great length of time, the only reason 7 days was used is it was likely a time within their limited realm of understanding or taken from earlier myth to appease pagans.

You, like so many atheists assume the bible MUST be taken literally and then religion debunked on that sole basis.

[Morality Games]

Sounds like there could definitely be a fit with Atheism here; although they claim to not believe in a divine power; their shared and personal convictions do constitute a faith, and a religion.

I don't know why theists constantly try the, "Atheism is a religion," approach, as though the idea of a worldivew that is not a religion is inconceivable. You seriously need to study a bit more before you start asserting such obvious nonsense.

Atheism is not based on faith, but on historical, logical, psychological, and scientific criticisms of biblical text and associations.

And once again, atheism isn't even a worldview, let alone a relgion! It is a philosophical viewpoint, no different nominalism, conceptualism, foundationalism, anti-foundationalism, functionalism, physicalism, dualism, etc... the term may have humanistic connatations, but it lacks properties necessary for it to be considered a life stance.

Usually, people called atheists would better be known as humanists.

You follow your convictions religiously here on this board and prove me right with every post you make.

Confidence does not equal religion, it is just a human expression.

Atheism can't be a religion because its adherents acknowledge there exists a condition whereby it could be wrong (aka, evidence for the existence of God is discovered). Religion acknowledges no such conditions -- it is true no matter what, evidence or not.

You, like so many atheists assume the bible MUST be taken literally and then religion debunked on that sole basis.

More like, "People took this seriously for thousands of years, but now that it looks like they are going to be debunked, they do a 180, and that only after they fought against such science-minded interpretations to the death?" The whole history of the religion is packed to the brim with ridiculous antics like this that make it difficult to take seriously. I think it is very silly and stupid, and an obvious ploy of people who will stop at nothing to safeguard their worldview.

Anyway, allegorical interpretations of the Bible are also susceptible to criticism, although the religious hoped they wouldn't be when they decided to go all "hidden meaning in a story, not history" on everyone.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: DTB123 And what would that prove if I did give you a definition of religion? All you would do is to come up with an opposing definition. My comment re the religious cult of atheism was really parenthetical to the subject at hand; referring to the tone of certain replies. If you are an atheist; you too have had a religion chosen for you; or you used it to replace the religion you used to have. Your atheism was taught to you by others, the same as is being said about Christians, and why they grow up Christian. One definition of faith from the Word Web Dictionary is as follows: "Loyalty or allegiance to a cause" perfectly describes Atheism, for it really takes a lot of faith to be one. Your faith is your religion. Take the word religion as described at Wikepdia: Sounds like there could definitely be a fit with Atheism here; although they claim to not believe in a divine power; their shared and personal convictions do constitute a faith, and a religion. You follow your convictions religiously here on this board and prove me right with every post you make.

Atheism has nothing to do with loyalty or allegiance to a cause. It's the non-belief in deities. What atheists do is irrelevant. Christianity, by it's definition, is a religion, according to your definition of religion because loyalty is in the definition of Christianity.

You've also must have spent quite some time finding the perfect definition online to try to fit atheism in there.. even so, you still failed.