God is an incompetent referee

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: phoenix_fire I'm not anti-debate. I'm not discouraging debate at all. Just because someone presents an inconsistent viewpoint and I ask why doesn't mean I'm trying to stop them from arguing.

Um..

"Why do you care? Ostensibly, you don't believe God exists. So why bother trying to prove a point about someOne you don't think exists?"

Just seems like you're trying to discourage him, which is weird.

[phoenix_fire]

Naturally, a question is begging a response. That would fall under encouraging, not discouraging.

[JoshuaRGodinez]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer I don't have absolute faith that there is no God. I don't have faith that there is not god at all. I simply believe that the evidence for gods is significantly less than the evidence against gods. If the evidence changes, so would my beliefs. Also, my argument is not proof of anything. It's just an argument against what the Bible says God is. So.. on two accounts, you've made completely wrong assertions about me.

Okey doke. Point taken. I read some of your interim posts that seemed to state that you didn't think God exists because of all the bad things happening in the world. So, if I changed "proof" to "argument" you could debate the points raised rather than the wording?

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Make that three accounts. I don't believe things are illogical on the basis of me not understanding them. I don't understand how a car works, but I don't conclude it's illogical.

I could have sworn I put a smiley into that last paragraph, but people don't seem to be catching it.

I can find no survival value in humans having an imagination that works to create utterly impossible explanations. To conclude "I don't know yet" make more sense than "Magic did it" if one uses reason. Just to say, improbable imagination exists, deal with it, avoids the debate. Why does it exist? I'm arguing for the existence of a deity that gave us the ability in order for us to experience faith. The universal existence of faith supports my argument.

It is improbable to the point of ridiculousness to believe that random action resulted in the world we now live in. There is no reason why the spark of life in the beginning should not have been snuffed out now that we see how fragile life can be. With modern science having dissected atoms to the most basic components and knowing the common elements of all life on the planet we should be able to approximate the conversion of base elements to self-reproducing lifeforms. This isn't like deconstructing lead and then making gold. It's recording those elements that existed at the planet's creation based on core samples and modern physics and then making a chamber containing those elements to emulate the start of life. If it can happen randomly, shouldn't we be able to reproduce it with focused effort? We can reproduce lightning, rain, the association of atoms into molecules. Why not this? Why aren't we even in the same ballpark, or continent, of knowing how this occurs?

I guess we can conclude that we just don't know yet. We might conclude that our improbable faith that a higher being exists and the utterly ridiculous idea that chance is ultimately responsible for the establishment of a republic in this nation argue for the existence of the divine.

Then we can talk about how Jesus would kick Mohammed's ass.

And lighten up. Even religious people don't think God will strike you down for telling a joke.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: JoshuaRGodinez Okey doke. Point taken. I read some of your interim posts that seemed to state that you didn't think God exists because of all the bad things happening in the world. So, if I changed "proof" to "argument" you could debate the points raised rather than the wording?

Could I? I did.. hence you've replied to it below. Wtf are you talking about?

I can find no survival value in humans having an imagination that works to create utterly impossible explanations. To conclude "I don't know yet" make more sense than "Magic did it" if one uses reason. Just to say, improbable imagination exists, deal with it, avoids the debate. Why does it exist? I'm arguing for the existence of a deity that gave us the ability in order for us to experience faith. The universal existence of faith supports my argument.

Reasoning and imagination are EXCELLENT evolutionary psychological strategies for outmaneuvering and beating one's environment, prey, and others. To say it has to be perfect or it doesn't have survival value is just plain stupid. You're still not making any sense.

Also, you need to understand.

People goals and gene goals are different.

For instance.. people who take steps to prevent pregnancy.

People want sexual pleasure and it is the pleasures of sex that are the genes' strategy to propagate themselves. If the genes don't get propagated, it is because we are smarter than they are.

Rationality is a gift of evolution but it has consequentially allowed us to have motives and thoughts that try to get MORE of what the genes are setting up as traps to get us to procreate.

It is improbable to the point of ridiculousness to believe that random action resulted in the world we now live in.

Sure. What retard thinks the world resulted in random action? Oh, that's right.. that's what you THINK evolutionary scientists believe.

There is no reason why the spark of life in the beginning should not have been snuffed out now that we see how fragile life can be.

Think big numbers. Big big numbers. We've observed countless planets and estimate countless more.

With modern science having dissected atoms to the most basic components and knowing the common elements of all life on the planet we should be able to approximate the conversion of base elements to self-reproducing lifeforms.

Just because you're ignorant of the current abiogenesis theories doesn't mean they don't exist. Scientists have discovered possible ways life could emerge.. it's not just a matter of finding out what DID happen.

This isn't like deconstructing lead and then making gold. It's recording those elements that existed at the planet's creation based on core samples and modern physics and then making a chamber containing those elements to emulate the start of life. If it can happen randomly, shouldn't we be able to reproduce it with focused effort? We can reproduce lightning, rain, the association of atoms into molecules. Why not this? Why aren't we even in the same ballpark, or continent, of knowing how this occurs?

Correction. YOU aren't even in the same ballpark, or continent, of knowing how this occurs. Scientists are. Besides, you're acting like some problems aren't harder than others. C'mon man..

I guess we can conclude that we just don't know yet. We might conclude that our improbable faith that a higher being exists and the utterly ridiculous idea that chance is ultimately responsible for the establishment of a republic in this nation argue for the existence of the divine.

Faith is a byproduct of rationalization (initially). . . and it is carried on by our wants and desires to feel good, be accepted into a society, etc.. You're making it seem like no scientist know this when really.. it's just you that's clueless.

Again, people goals and gene goals are NOT the same thing.

People telling people that it is good to have unevidenced faith in something is a matter of a byproduct of gene goals.. manifested by people goals. AKA.. emotions have survival value.. while not all manifestations of emotions do.

And lighten up. Even religious people don't think God will strike you down for telling a joke.

Trust me.. if only I could express how much some people here *AHEM* make me laugh..

[Rainbow]

Quote by: Tycoon And where are you getting your nonsensical theory?

- Mathematics
- Physics
Are you suggesting we should abolish these scientific disciplines ?

[Rainbow]

Quote by: Halofan48 Well, what if the Hindu religion is the one correct Then it's different.

We would award those guys with candy and (certified) diploma :-)

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Rainbow - Mathematics - Physics Are you suggesting we should abolish these scientific disciplines ?

I assure you Rainbow.. no one is questioning how many suns there are in our solar system.. It's the other parts that are in question..

[Piscean]

In the end I have to agree with what it says in the bible on this subject. God is revealed to those God chooses for reasons beyond any of us. There is know way for those who truly know God to prove it to the others and that's for a reason. So these arguments will go on forever in futility. No one will even have scientific proof that God exists and no one will ever have scientific evidence that God doesn't exist. Anybody who says otherwise is trippin.