God is an incompetent referee

[phoenix_fire]

Why do you care? Ostensibly, you don't believe God exists. So why bother trying to prove a point about someOne you don't think exists? That which does not exist can be made to have any attribute. It is only those things that do exist that have a singular, unique, and immutable nature.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: HelioPrime A quick look at many of the tests to the faithful show that fairness is not an accurate word.

Of course not.. I said the BIBLE says he's fair.

I think fairness is better used to describe the fair result of the reward of heaven for those who pass while living in his name. After all, life on earth is only a brief speck of time compared to eternity, rewarding the faithful even if their earthly lives were full of torment is perfectly fair.

I sincerely hope you don't think someone should go to Hell for not finding faith in Jesus.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: HelioPrime Immoral is attributed to humans. In the end were still falling back to the "God has to fit into my views to be real" attitude.

No, Helio.. it's part of the.. "there's no way something as vile as God could be described so highly in the Bible... perhaps instead it's a scam.." attitude. You're probably the least suitable candidate to vouch for atheists or analyze what we believe as you consistently make this bullshit assumption about us. Learn.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Of course not.. I said the BIBLE says he's fair.

Once again, its YOUR viewpoint here that causes the contradiction.

Because you don't believe in an afterlife your demanding that God be fair while on earth. I don't see any problem with the state of affairs on earth if the reward of eternity is well enough. Perfectly fair to me.

I sincerely hope you don't think someone should go to Hell for not finding faith in Jesus.

It's stated that those who follow the golden rule will make it to heaven. Could be anyone even atheists who live this way make it to heaven.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer No, Helio.. it's part of the.. "there's no way something as vile as God could be described so highly in the Bible... perhaps instead it's a scam.." attitude. You're probably the least suitable candidate to vouch for atheists or analyze what we believe as you consistently make this bullshit assumption about us. Learn.

Your just feeding more into my assumptions.

God is vile? Why? because some human authors might have used a text to promote their own goals of slavery, homophobia, or any number of personal gains?

Your still falling back to "God has to be what I envision" stereotype.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: JoshuaRGodinez No. Thank you for playing. I'd prefer a more debatable question. Why do happy, successful scientists with advanced degrees believe in God? Well, maybe that's useless because I'm not one.

Um.. when did I claim belief in God guarantees overall crippling retardation?

If our entire existence from the big bang to the small bang that resulted in our conception has been a continuous process of physical law driven processes, why would our psychological makeup be susceptible to belief in the supernatural? Without the supernatural, what makes it possible to believe in one?

wtf We have reasoning skills. Early people tried to explain things and they often used a simple answer: a magical god.

By all we've observed, no form of life should exist in this universe or it should exist everywhere.

What..?

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: HelioPrime Your just feeding more into my assumptions. God is vile? Why? because some human authors might have used a text to promote their own goals of slavery, homophobia, or any number of personal gains?

Bingo. So why should I assume God is real when I view it as a purely human book?

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: HelioPrime Once again, its YOUR viewpoint here that causes the contradiction. Because you don't believe in an afterlife your demanding that God be fair while on earth. I don't see any problem with the state of affairs on earth if the reward of eternity is well enough. Perfectly fair to me.

UHHHH.. I'm ASSUMING there's an afterlife to conclude that God is sick. People being sent to Hell forever.. ASSUMES there's an afterlife.. and I have a problem with people being sent to Hell for not finding faith in Jesus.

Again, you fail to grasp this.

It's stated that those who follow the golden rule will make it to heaven. Could be anyone even atheists who live this way make it to heaven.

Reasonable people state that to reconcile with bullshit barbarism and nonsense. I believe it's bullshit barbarism and nonsense because it was not at all inspired by God.. but instead it's just like every religion.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: phoenix_fire Why do you care? Ostensibly, you don't believe God exists. So why bother trying to prove a point about someOne you don't think exists?

This is a debate. Why are you questioning his right to discuss this?

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer This is a debate. Why are you questioning his right to discuss this?

Why do you continually ask questions that you really don't care to learn an answer to then?

Belief is a choice. I think thats been made clear, since you choose not to believe thats great for you.

Why the need to ask questions when every response is just another god hate rant.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Bingo. So why should I assume God is real when I view it as a purely human book?

Then why even ask questions when you don't want an answer. All you want is people who are willing to talk back so you can endlessly insert gad hating rhetoric.

On that note I'm done with this thread, since it has devolved beyond any meaningful debate whatsoever.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer This is a debate. Why are you questioning his right to discuss this?

He can discuss it till he's blue in the face. And I have a right to smirk sarcastically and imply that I'm picking apart his real, deep seated, psychological reasons for reacting so militantly to something he claims to believe nonexistent. Or are you questioning my right to be a snarky know-it-all?

[Piscean]

and it all just kinda leaked out.

God condemns homosexuality for no reason whatsoever. I don't remember the exact quote, but here it was: "For I assure you that murderers, theives, adulterers and the effeminate shall not inherit my kingdom." Something along that lines. First that made me question why God would condemn gays. Second that made me question if God had any moral center. Third that made me question if God existed. In other words, it poked a hole in my belief of God

Well just because some guy said you wont inherit the kingdom as a gay doesn't mean what men say it means.And how naive would we have to be to believe the bible is accurately translated and interpreted? C'mon it's been changed across thousands of years, several different languages and different cultures who didn't even use words the same way as our left brain dominant society, plus it was in the hands of men that whole time, and you know how well men can be trusted! I mean if Jesus died for the sins of us all so they wouldn't be held against us, wouldn't that cover your sins too (assuming homosexuality is somehow an incompleteness like any other sin, like my lusting for wome n i shouldn't or whatever). I mean just for the sake of argument let's say that it's just not totally right being gay (you can't reproduce, it's against the laws of nature etc.) and that's all sin really is, just a lacking of completeness, but since all of us are only tiny fragments of God, we are all incomplete. My sins are no better than your, and it's just the way I'm made, so obviously God made me this way and is ultimately responsible for my sins as well as anything that may be right about me or you. Isn't that why God would provide a salvation for us all, since God made us to be incomplete in this life. People wanna point out a certain "sin" and act like there better than you because they don't have that particular way about them, and the whole time they are drowning in their own incompleteness es. Either God provides a salvation for us all, since we are all out of balance in some way, or none of us. But man takes the message and uses it to point ignorant fingers which make people loose their faith etc. It's men who wont accept you not God. We all will have to go through some changes to ever become complete but in this life we just aren't and that's why God provided us salvation. It's all God's responsibility not ours. But man wants to put it on you like you gotta change what you are magically on your own or you wont make it to heaven. It's all hogwash religious crap man. Your no worse off than the rest of us and anybody judging you is really only judging themselves. Imagine the people who will have to answer to God for turning so many away from their faith. And yet even these people are the way they are to serve a purpose in the grander scheme of things that none of us can possibly comprehend. I'm thankful I wasn't made for the purpose of turning people away from their faith, I thank God I wasn't chosen to be one of those guys. Do you see what I'm saying. We are all given different burdens to bare and different insecurities and incompleteness es to deal with but an all powerful God obviously did this on purpose and can just as easily restore us all to a complete form. Man doesn't want you to know that though because man likes to control everyone with fear. It's just more of the incompleteness of man causing us all more pain. But rise above it with real faith in an all powerful God not the crap they teach u in church about a petty jealous jerk who will torture the vast majority of humankind in eternal fire for being the way God made them. That's the ridiculous state of the spirituality of the world, that we teach and live according to such madness in the name of God. Anyway I hope I haven't offended you in any way, I have just as much respect and love for you as I do myself and it feels infinitely more right and good to have a heart free to love my fellow human beings than it does to hate like people learn in church and society.

[Tycoon]

What you said makes sense Piscean, but not all Christians would agree with you. When it comes down to it, nobody has any idea how literal of a interpretation the bible should be taken at.

Not to mention being gay wasn't my reason for renouncing God, it was merely the "foot through the door". Seeing the atheist argument I have to agree with it.

[JoshuaRGodinez]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Um.. when did I claim belief in God guarantees overall crippling retardation? wtf We have reasoning skills. Early people tried to explain things and they often used a simple answer: a magical god. What..?

Most people who argue against God fall back on either science or the necessity of emotionally weak people to have a crutch in the form of a supernatural being. So, I was trying to get those out of the way by noting that there are happy scientists who ask what would Jesus do.

The existence of reasoning skills makes me wonder why people tried to explain things with magic instead of, well, reason. It seems logical to me that if someone saw an apple fall from a tree he would ask himself why that was and start dropping things from heights to see if everything fell and what was different about them. Why did early man immediately jump to the assumption that there was a divine being instead of expecting that there was a natural reason for everything? Why are we able to imagine things that are impossible, like flying by flapping your arms, instead of just accepting what is? Perhaps it is the spark of the divine. It doesn't make sense to me for humans to develop an ability that is not an extension of our evolution.You say we have reasoning skills as if that's the explanation for our believing in magic.

If life can spontaneously begin on Earth, why wouldn't it spontaneously start everywhere else? Just because DNA is the building block for life on Earth doesn't necessarily mean that's the only way life can exist. If the universe can create life in a random scatter of common chemicals it seems logical that it should be a common thing. If the odds are against it, we shouldn't exist. There are innumerable numbers of chemical reactions every moment. The rational explanation is that billions of years ago one of those random reactions needed our environment to start all known life? Now that we've identified how our life-bearing chemicals go together, shouldn't we be able to create the most basic life form? Our methods are pretty focused now, not random.

Unlike Islam, Christianity does not say that the Bible is the literal word of God. Although some Christians choose to live that way, everything written is the words of men trying to describe what they saw or experienced. How many times have you tried to describe a dream or insight to someone else, but have it come out confused? Like me right now. Only Mohammed says the book is literally what God said in the words He said them. Christianity is the experience of men interacting with the divine and trying to describe it.

Your absolute faith that there is no God and the proof being that His word doesn't fit into your world view seems pretty arbitrary. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean you have to believe in the illogical.

[ShadowFox]

If life can spontaneously begin on Earth, why wouldn't it spontaneously start everywhere else? Just because DNA is the building block for life on Earth doesn't necessarily mean that's the only way life can exist. If the universe can create life in a random scatter of common chemicals it seems logical that it should be a common thing. If the odds are against it, we shouldn't exist. There are innumerable numbers of chemical reactions every moment. The rational explanation is that billions of years ago one of those random reactions needed our environment to start all known life? Now that we've identified how our life-bearing chemicals go together, shouldn't we be able to create the most basic life form? Our methods are pretty focused now, not random.

Who told you that there's no life on other planets? They are even saying now that life likely existed on Mars at one time. Also, life on other worlds may not have the same requirements as we do. Life can survive in harsh climates. We just haven't found them yet.

Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean you have to believe in the illogical.

exactly. Just because we don't yet understand certain things like the origin of the Earth or the Universe doesn't mean you have to believe a god/gods created it.

[Piscean]

What you said makes sense Piscean, but not all Christians would agree with you.

Ohh believe me I know "Christians" or those who abuse the name of Christ love to hurl hateful abuse at me for saying things that are motivated by the love and understanding that God's put in my heart, much like they did to Jesus (not that I think I'm the savior or any madness like that, I just believe all the more in the truths made evident from the inside when the world hates me more for it,I take it to be a good sign;-)

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: HelioPrime On that note I'm done with this thread, since it has devolved beyond any meaningful debate whatsoever.

I wish you'd conclude that sooner.

Quote by: JoshuaRGodinez Most people who argue against God fall back on either science or the necessity of emotionally weak people to have a crutch in the form of a supernatural being. So, I was trying to get those out of the way by noting that there are happy scientists who ask what would Jesus do.

Well let me be the first to say.. I don't think emotional weakness is a primary reason people believe in God.

The existence of reasoning skills makes me wonder why people tried to explain things with magic instead of, well, reason.

Well, before science and before the massive growth in science.. reasoning can only go so far. You can't possibly use reasoning alone to conclude that the sun is made of hydrogen and is not a god. It takes science.. with reason.

If life can spontaneously begin on Earth, why wouldn't it spontaneously start everywhere else?

Because the conditions for life must be there.. and the happenings must occur. It was a very special occurrence and we should relish on the fact that it happened. However, given that there are a mind boggling number of extra-solar planets.. it's likely it has occurred in other places.. but to say it should happen everywhere is nonsense.

If the universe can create life in a random scatter of common chemicals it seems logical that it should be a common thing.

Life was not created by a random scatter of common chemicals. They weren't even common chemicals.. compared to like.. hydrogen.

If the odds are against it, we shouldn't exist.

The odds are against people winning the lottery. People still win the lottery. There are soooo many extra-solar planets.. even if the chances were incredibly low, and they likely are, it would still happen often but by no means EVERYWHERE like you want to present.

Your absolute faith that there is no God and the proof being that His word doesn't fit into your world view seems pretty arbitrary.

I don't have absolute faith that there is no God. I don't have faith that there is not god at all. I simply believe that the evidence for gods is significantly less than the evidence against gods. If the evidence changes, so would my beliefs.

Also, my argument is not proof of anything. It's just an argument against what the Bible says God is.

So.. on two accounts, you've made completely wrong assertions about me.

Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean you have to believe in the illogical.

Make that three accounts.

I don't believe things are illogical on the basis of me not understanding them. I don't understand how a car works, but I don't conclude it's illogical.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: phoenix_fire Or are you questioning my right to be a snarky know-it-all?

No, I'm questioning why people are anti-debate in a debate forum. I want to learn why, seriously.

[phoenix_fire]

I'm not anti-debate. I'm not discouraging debate at all. Just because someone presents an inconsistent viewpoint and I ask why doesn't mean I'm trying to stop them from arguing.