God is an incompetent referee

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Simple question.. Does a Muslim who's brought up to hate Christians, brainwashed by the Koran, and continuously taught to be devoted to the Islam faith.. have as much chance of getting into Heaven as someone brought up in a Christian household and is taught to accept Jesus in their hearts? C'mon people.. is this really a fair playing field?

I think this question and the multitudes like it have been answered time and time again.....

Who says the judeo-christian God has to be fair? As PF and Jimmy noted, nobody knows for sure who is saved or not. So making up a situation to disprove God doesn't work.

All your doing is using your own standards to determine what's fair and what's not. If you can't believe in a god just because he doesn't seem fair to you then thats your choice.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Morality Games I find it interesting how most religions (including Christianity) on their own provide countless reasons why you should not believe, yet people still do.

How do you figure? And how did you get that from that quote?

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Simple question.. Does a Muslim who's brought up to hate Christians, brainwashed by the Koran, and continuously taught to be devoted to the Islam faith.. have as much chance of getting into Heaven as someone brought up in a Christian household and is taught to accept Jesus in their hearts? C'mon people.. is this really a fair playing field? Let's even assume this number.. A soul has a set strength predisposition towards faith in Jesus and some people's lives are harder to find Jesus than others because God's setting the bar at different heights depending on what a soul can handle. Wild assumption, I know.. So, we can assume that much "stronger" souls would be the one's born into extreme muslim societies and families brainwashed into hating Christians and Jews. Then why is it that nearly everyone born into Muslim brainwashing in Iran or someplace extreme like that never comes to accept Jesus as their savior and thus.. goes to Hell?

Hating Christians is not the same as hating Jesus. Muslims believe that Jesus was a messinger of God and that he plays a role in the over all historical pathway of their religion. They feel that most of the Western world has gone astray and has become immoral and corupt, and that Christians have become the false profits of our modern age. Especially in America. And they feel that Christians have rejected the lastest "world teacher" sent by God to rule over the kingdom of the faithful.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: HelioPrime I think this question and the multitudes like it have been answered time and time again.....

Stop being so anti-debate. Everywhere I go I see you trying to convince people it's not worth debating.

Who says the judeo-christian God has to be fair?

The Bible says he is fair.

As PF and Jimmy noted, nobody knows for sure who is saved or not. So making up a situation to disprove God doesn't work.

The Bible gives criteria.. I've used this criteria to present an argument.

Jimmy is a reasonable person. I find most Christians are reasonable people. What I'm criticizing is Christianity.. not Christians. Any Christian can define anything as he or she wishes.. I can't possibly anticipate every possible view point.

All your doing is using your own standards to determine what's fair and what's not.

Yes.

If you can't believe in a god just because he doesn't seem fair to you then thats your choice.

No, I don't disbelieve in God JUST because he's insanly sick. Another reason, as you always always fail to see.. is that the Bible specifically attributes things to God like being just and fair.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Techno Hating Christians is not the same as hating Jesus. Muslims believe that Jesus was a messinger of God and that he plays a role in the over all historical pathway of their religion. They feel that most of the Western world has gone astray and has become immoral and corupt, and that Christians have become the false profits of our modern age. Especially in America. And they feel that Christians have rejected the lastest "world teacher" sent by God to rule over the kingdom of the faithful. Before debating check out the following link. The Jesus of Islam, The Muslim Jesus, an Introduction

I never bought that. Muslims can't convince Christians that Mohammad was inspired because he denied that Jesus is the Son of God. If he had an in with God, he couldn't have possibly missed that. Mohammad would have had no choice but to accept Jesus as what He said He is, or reject him as a madman. All this claiming that Jesus was just another prophet does not hold water.

[Domino]

I believe it is important for each person to decide for themselves what sort of God they're willing to worship.

Personally, I believe that any God who would send good people to Hell for failing to say the magic words is unworthy of worship. While I may not know much about the God I worship, I do know a few things that he's not.

[Piscean]

I'm not being blinded by the fact that I'm gay if that's what you mean. It was what opened my eyes.


So being gay oppened your eyes to Gods nonexistance? I don't get what your saying.

[Piscean]

I never bought that. Muslims can't convince Christians that Mohammad was inspired because he denied that Jesus is the Son of God. If he had an in with God, he couldn't have possibly missed that. Mohammad would have had no choice but to accept Jesus as what He said He is, or reject him as a madman. All this claiming that Jesus was just another prophet does not hold water.


That's a good point.

[Tycoon]

So being gay oppened your eyes to Gods nonexistance? I don't get what your saying.

God condemns homosexuality for no reason whatsoever. I don't remember the exact quote, but here it was:

"For I assure you that murderers, theives, adulterers and the effeminate shall not inherit my kingdom."

Something along that lines. First that made me question why God would condemn gays. Second that made me question if God had any moral center. Third that made me question if God existed. In other words, it poked a hole in my belief of God and it all just kinda leaked out.

[Jimmy the Pro]

God didn't write that. Although we believe that God inspired the writers of the Bible, God didn't come right out and say gays will go to hell.

Look, translations in text get lost in connotative meaning and impact over time. Effeminate may not mean the same thing we take it to mean today. Afterall, what is good is considered "bad" and what is "bad" is also good. Why can't the same have happened here.

I realize that is a strech to argue so instead I'll go for this...

Those who wrote the Bible didn't completely understand scientific basis for certain things such as the way genes and other parts of our make-up affect our sexuality. I admit it, on that issue they are not correct.

But does that mean that NOW that we know the difference we have to use them and say "I guess I'm going to hell because this guy said so." If God didn't directly dictate to His people that gays were destined for hell then there's no reason to believe that our ancestors were mistaken on this issue and that gays are still loved by God.

God forbid we learn something and have to understand that we must change our opinions on things overtime. We have done the same things and realize that black people do in fact belong to God's kindom even though there was slavery in the Bible. We adjust, adapt, and understand that the writers had limited knowledge of certain things and did the best they could.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer The Bible says he is fair.

A quick look at many of the tests to the faithful show that fairness is not an accurate word. I think fairness is better used to describe the fair result of the reward of heaven for those who pass while living in his name. After all, life on earth is only a brief speck of time compared to eternity, rewarding the faithful even if their earthly lives were full of torment is perfectly fair.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Tycoon God condemns homosexuality for no reason whatsoever. I don't remember the exact quote, but here it was: "For I assure you that murderers, theives, adulterers and the effeminate shall not inherit my kingdom." .

The full quote looks like this:

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
Nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

If you read then entire passage you'll discover the christian right like to leave out the last part.

The message here is people are washed clean of sins by faith. Homosexuality may be a sin, but you are not damned just for being gay.

You are judged by your belief and your actions, not your biological makeup.

I see no problem with being gay and still being religious. The only problem I see comes from the hatred I see most gays have against anything religious or mainstream.

[Tycoon]

But does that mean that NOW that we know the difference we have to use them and say "I guess I'm going to hell because this guy said so." If God didn't directly dictate to His people that gays were destined for hell then there's no reason to believe that our ancestors were mistaken on this issue and that gays are still loved by God.

Where would they have gotten any of these ideas if not from God? You are indirectly suggesting that the entire Bible was simply written by humans, and is simply a pack of stories. After all, without God being involved in some way or another the story of Genesis would be just that, a story. Which all evidence says it is anyways... but let's not start an argument on that.

[Tycoon]

The message here is people are washed clean of sins by faith. Homosexuality may be a sin, but you are not damned just for being gay.

If this is the case then you are suggesting that all sin is okay as long as you continue to believe in God.

I would also say that God would be immoral for even suggesting that homosexuality is a sin.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Tycoon If this is the case then you are suggesting that all sin is okay as long as you continue to believe in God. I would also say that God would be immoral for even suggesting that homosexuality is a sin.

Immoral is attributed to humans.

In the end were still falling back to the "God has to fit into my views to be real" attitude.

[JoshuaRGodinez]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Does a Muslim who's brought up to hate Christians, brainwashed by the Koran, and continuously taught to be devoted to the Islam faith have as much chance of getting into Heaven as someone brought up in a Christian household and is taught to accept Jesus in their hearts?

No. Thank you for playing.

I'd prefer a more debatable question. Why do happy, successful scientists with advanced degrees believe in God? Well, maybe that's useless because I'm not one.

If our entire existence from the big bang to the small bang that resulted in our conception has been a continuous process of physical law driven processes, why would our psychological makeup be susceptible to belief in the supernatural? Without the supernatural, what makes it possible to believe in one? Why was scientific method an advance for civilization instead of the normal process like "I'm hungry, gotta eat" was? There seems to be no rational explanation for self-perception rather than automated responses.

By all we've observed, no form of life should exist in this universe or it should exist everywhere.

So, yeah. Bad luck being born in Medina.

[Rainbow]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer God is an incompetent referee Simple question.. Does a Muslim who's brought up to hate Christians, brainwashed by the Koran, and continuously taught to be devoted to the Islam faith.. have as much chance of getting into Heaven as someone brought up in a Christian household and is taught to accept Jesus in their hearts? C'mon people.. is this really a fair playing field? Let's even assume this number.. A soul has a set strength predisposition towards faith in Jesus and some people's lives are harder to find Jesus than others because God's setting the bar at different heights depending on what a soul can handle. Wild assumption, I know.. So, we can assume that much "stronger" souls would be the one's born into extreme muslim societies and families brainwashed into hating Christians and Jews. Then why is it that nearly everyone born into Muslim brainwashing in Iran or someplace extreme like that never comes to accept Jesus as their savior and thus.. goes to Hell?

One makes a mistake by thinking that there are several Gods out there.
Otherwise, we have as much Gods as religions, in order to match a number for the Suns, respectively.
Since there is 1 Sun within the Solar System, only, (not to mention all the Stars within the MilkyWay Galaxy, and all those billions Galaxies included in the Universe) therefore there Must Be 1 God only.
Otherwise, there are as many Universes as religions, in order to match every single God for every single religion.
The label a particluar religion assigns to God is irrelevant, then.
The aspect Atheists vs. Theists is irrelevant as well.

[ShadowFox]

Well, what if the Hindu religion is the one correct Then it's different.

[Tycoon]

One makes a mistake by thinking that there are several Gods out there. Otherwise, we have as much Gods as religions, in order to match a number for the Suns, respectively. Since there is 1 Sun within the Solar System, only, (not to mention all the Stars within the MilkyWay Galaxy, and all those billions Galaxies included in the Universe) therefore there Must Be 1 God only.

And where are you getting your nonsensical theory?

[Tycoon]

Immoral is attributed to humans.

I see no reason not to attribute immorality to God. After all, morality can be attributed to humans as well.