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Morality Games · Mar 26, 2008, 04:11 pm

My observation is that the term 'truth' and the phrases synonymous with it are typically employed when people experience a feeling of certainty that an idea of theirs corresponds to the state of things. Since few of the ideas expressed by people throughout time have stacked evenly alongside reality after retrospective analysis, it becomes fair to question if settled truths are possible, or, given how well human beings have made by with makeshift truths, if such a truth-type is even necessary for living a quality existence.

I am prepared to contend, however, that some degree of correspondence between an idea and reality is possible, and that such a relation can be put to work for the benefit of conscious beings. Since correspondence, for the sake of better satisfying the wants which emerge from the constitution of a being's nature, is the aim, experience-focused reasoning operating under high standards of verification should become the most often used mode of thought amongst conscious beings, especially in our political and personal relationships. This is because, while an idea inconsistent with reality may satisfy wants on a day to day basis, a whole lifetime, or even for generations afterward, the potentiality that serious harm could, at any moment, arise from it is much larger than with ideas which still appear consistent with reality after undergoing rigorous analysis.

So, the tentativeness of science could be thought of as a type of caution against the dangers intrinistic to dogmatism.

Objectivist · Mar 27, 2008, 12:40 am

I'm not sure what kind of replies you are looking for, or if you just want to discuss truth but...

I think that truth is the identification of the facts of reality. And that the good only comes from the truth and that it cannot come from the false.

Morality Games · Mar 27, 2008, 01:22 am

It is a philosophical idea, so I put it out in the Philosophy section for people to respond to it (critique, flatter, etc) as they will. The argument becomes whatever it will be.

phoenix_fire · Mar 27, 2008, 04:10 pm

There is truth and there is Truth. Every mathematician knows there is truth. They'd probably be the best ones to ask. I begin to think sometimes that the mathematicians have a better in on understanding the universe than most scientists. In math, you know the difference between a makeshift theorem that explains some phenomena but fails in others. In math, you know the difference between an approximation and an absolute. In math, you know when someone's stretching it, and you can tell them with certainty what their percentage for error is. Mathematicians don't put stock in pseudosciences that purport to explain by superficial categorizations and subjective comparisons. Mathematicians are able to use probabilities and predictions, uncensored by the dogmatic and materialistic directives of the so-called "scientific" community.

xyzer · Mar 27, 2008, 06:47 pm

I agree, truth is each individuals perception of reality..Careful Phoenix-fire, even mathematics cannot explain whats beyond "singularity"? Math certainty only exosts in the known universe?

phoenix_fire · Mar 27, 2008, 07:03 pm

I didn't say that they had all the answers: just a reasonably good method and a firm grasp on what really is and is not known.

ChaChynga · Apr 1, 2008, 07:24 pm

You don't have to understand it to know it.

Truth is not about being subjective.

Truth is a standard and an unchanging universal, unlike the idiot Einstein who makes a truth into a lie, and more like Newton, who sees truth on every thing.

Morality Games · Apr 1, 2008, 10:19 pm

Quote:

Quote by: ChaChynga

You don't have to understand it to know it.

Truth is not about being subjective.

Truth is a standard and an unchanging universal, unlike the idiot Einstein who makes a truth into a lie, and more like Newton, who sees truth on every thing.

Definitely not (and if by some chance so, then beyond humans).

Tycoon · Apr 1, 2008, 10:20 pm

Quote:

You don't have to understand it to know it.

Truth is not about being subjective.

Truth is a standard and an unchanging universal, unlike the idiot Einstein who makes a truth into a lie, and more like Newton, who sees truth on every thing.

Oh? Let's take a hypothetical circumstance... what if I said that I thought you were ugly and stupid. What if everyone in the world agreed with me. Would that make it the truth?

There is a such thing as opinion... which eliminates the black and white you are trying to create.

Dr_Acula · Apr 7, 2008, 12:37 am

I agree with ChaChinga. Truth is a synonim for what is reality. It is not subjective, it is a mere fact. In any case, it may or may not be able to be known, and our aproaches may not correspond with it, but us not knowing it doesn't stop it from being true.

In your example, you said you thought he was ugly. Lets assume you aren't lying. Beauty is subjective. So that means that, to you, he IS ugly. That is the TRUTH. Maybe to me, he is not ugly. Then it is the TRUTH that to me, he is not ugly. (That's one of the few cases were we can tell if something is the truth. In physiscs, for example, we may never know if our theories correspond with the truth.)

Will_00 · Apr 7, 2008, 12:43 am

Truth is the absolute belief that something is True and cannot be at all in "danger" of being in the cease of existence simply because one questions the existence of itself. E.g. God - If someone who was an atheist stated an extraneously large amount of "proof" that God did not exist, that does not make it that God does not exist, he still exists, he simply does not seem to exist based on the observer's (the atheist) current state of being.

**Jack** · Apr 7, 2008, 12:45 am

I agree with phoenix_fire that there's truth and then there's Truth (don't freak out, I'm not finished).

Where we'd disagree is that I accept the reality of truth as being an observation most consistent with reality and observable/detectable evidence. I do not accept the reality of Truth, or to call it by its better known moniker, absolute truth.

Even the statement "every living thing dies" is true only so far as our knowledge of nature extends. We cannot state that absolutely. Absolute truths aren't even necessary. I'm not impressed by the degree of a truth, just its application.

Will_00 · Apr 7, 2008, 12:51 am

Quote:

Even the statement "every living thing dies" is true only so far as our knowledge of nature extends. We cannot state that absolutely. Absolute truths aren't even necessary.

I disagree. "Absolute Truth" - as stated in my previous post, is not based upon what is in fact known. If my pen is black (although you haven't seen it) you say though that it is white, you do not need to have the physical proof that it is not black but white - you can simply know (if this existed) that there were no white pens that existed in the world at any time, if the time passed, because absolute Truth was a belief.

Mar 26, 2008, 04:11 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
Morality Games Hot Lava Location: Iowa Posts: 756	Truth My observation is that the term 'truth' and the phrases synonymous with it are typically employed when people experience a feeling of certainty that an idea of theirs corresponds to the state of things. Since few of the ideas expressed by people throughout time have stacked evenly alongside reality after retrospective analysis, it becomes fair to question if settled truths are possible, or, given how well human beings have made by with makeshift truths, if such a truth-type is even necessary for living a quality existence. I am prepared to contend, however, that some degree of correspondence between an idea and reality is possible, and that such a relation can be put to work for the benefit of conscious beings. Since correspondence, for the sake of better satisfying the wants which emerge from the constitution of a being's nature, is the aim, experience-focused reasoning operating under high standards of verification should become the most often used mode of thought amongst conscious beings, especially in our political and personal relationships. This is because, while an idea inconsistent with reality may satisfy wants on a day to day basis, a whole lifetime, or even for generations afterward, the potentiality that serious harm could, at any moment, arise from it is much larger than with ideas which still appear consistent with reality after undergoing rigorous analysis. So, the tentativeness of science could be thought of as a type of caution against the dangers intrinistic to dogmatism. A moral being is an entity for whom the disadvantage of others is an issue. – K.H.Y.

Mar 27, 2008, 12:40 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
Objectivist Immovable Location: Montana Posts: 200	I'm not sure what kind of replies you are looking for, or if you just want to discuss truth but... I think that truth is the identification of the facts of reality. And that the good only comes from the truth and that it cannot come from the false. "Ask yourself whether the dream of heaven and of greatness should be waiting for us in our graves. . .or whether it should be ours here and now and on this earth." From Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand

Mar 27, 2008, 01:22 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
Morality Games Hot Lava Location: Iowa Posts: 756	It is a philosophical idea, so I put it out in the Philosophy section for people to respond to it (critique, flatter, etc) as they will. The argument becomes whatever it will be. A moral being is an entity for whom the disadvantage of others is an issue. – K.H.Y.

Mar 27, 2008, 04:10 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
phoenix_fire Paladin Location: Narnia Posts: 4,277	There is truth and there is Truth. Every mathematician knows there is truth. They'd probably be the best ones to ask. I begin to think sometimes that the mathematicians have a better in on understanding the universe than most scientists. In math, you know the difference between a makeshift theorem that explains some phenomena but fails in others. In math, you know the difference between an approximation and an absolute. In math, you know when someone's stretching it, and you can tell them with certainty what their percentage for error is. Mathematicians don't put stock in pseudosciences that purport to explain by superficial categorizations and subjective comparisons. Mathematicians are able to use probabilities and predictions, uncensored by the dogmatic and materialistic directives of the so-called "scientific" community. Place me like a seal over your heart, like a seal on your arm; for love is as strong as death, its jealousy unyielding as the grave. It burns like blazing fire, like a mighty flame. -- Song 8:6

Mar 27, 2008, 06:47 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
xyzer Liberated thinker Location: New Mexican Alps Posts: 1,981	I agree, truth is each individuals perception of reality..Careful Phoenix-fire, even mathematics cannot explain whats beyond "singularity"? Math certainty only exosts in the known universe? Thus we play the fools with the time, and the spirits of the wise sit in the clouds and mock us.

Mar 27, 2008, 07:03 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
phoenix_fire Paladin Location: Narnia Posts: 4,277	I didn't say that they had all the answers: just a reasonably good method and a firm grasp on what really is and is not known. Place me like a seal over your heart, like a seal on your arm; for love is as strong as death, its jealousy unyielding as the grave. It burns like blazing fire, like a mighty flame. -- Song 8:6

Apr 1, 2008, 07:24 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
ChaChynga Molten Ash Location: Republic of Texas Posts: 58	You don't have to understand it to know it. Truth is not about being subjective. Truth is a standard and an unchanging universal, unlike the idiot Einstein who makes a truth into a lie, and more like Newton, who sees truth on every thing.

Apr 7, 2008, 12:37 am	#10 (permalink) (top)
Dr_Acula Molten Ash Posts: 39	I agree with ChaChinga. Truth is a synonim for what is reality. It is not subjective, it is a mere fact. In any case, it may or may not be able to be known, and our aproaches may not correspond with it, but us not knowing it doesn't stop it from being true. In your example, you said you thought he was ugly. Lets assume you aren't lying. Beauty is subjective. So that means that, to you, he IS ugly. That is the TRUTH. Maybe to me, he is not ugly. Then it is the TRUTH that to me, he is not ugly. (That's one of the few cases were we can tell if something is the truth. In physiscs, for example, we may never know if our theories correspond with the truth.)

Apr 7, 2008, 12:43 am	#11 (permalink) (top)
Will_00 Computer Nerd Posts: 221	Truth is the absolute belief that something is True and cannot be at all in "danger" of being in the cease of existence simply because one questions the existence of itself. E.g. God - If someone who was an atheist stated an extraneously large amount of "proof" that God did not exist, that does not make it that God does not exist, he still exists, he simply does not seem to exist based on the observer's (the atheist) current state of being. "Intellectual growth should begin at birth and cease only at death." Albert Einstein My Website

Apr 7, 2008, 12:45 am	#12 (permalink) (top)
Jack formerly Isherwood Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 13,001	I agree with phoenix_fire that there's truth and then there's Truth (don't freak out, I'm not finished). Where we'd disagree is that I accept the reality of truth as being an observation most consistent with reality and observable/detectable evidence. I do not accept the reality of Truth, or to call it by its better known moniker, absolute truth. Even the statement "every living thing dies" is true only so far as our knowledge of nature extends. We cannot state that absolutely. Absolute truths aren't even necessary. I'm not impressed by the degree of a truth, just its application. The Forum Rules Radical Atheist Heathen Queer Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be. (Ashleigh Brilliant)