Would God dam America as a nation?

[grandpa]

Quote by: Marilyn Monroe I'd say He'd praise us because overall we're pretty good. Can't expect perfection cause we ain't in heaven yet.

We're not even close to perfection, so if God existed his standards would likely be lightyears ahead of ours. But that's a mountainous "If."

Grandpa h.

[phoenix_fire]

God does, in fact, expect perfection. Luckily for us, He's merciful. On the other hand, however, I don't think He appreciates that most people take His mercy to mean that they needn't bother trying.

[Tycoon]

The God of the bible is a selfish child. He demands complete and blind loyalty despite all the suffering He himself created.

[Flip Jackson]

Tycoon, thank you for the well thought out and very pertinent argument. You have completely changed my opinion on the topic at hand.

And, Marilyn Monroe, I really hope you are joking. Do you really feel that we are a moral people in this day and age? We are just as immoral, if not more so, than any time in the history of the world. The only difference is that we find it "acceptable" nowadays.

For example, adultery used to be taboo. Now it is accepted and commonplace. Lying used to be considered a horrible thing. Now we justify it in everything from elementary school to big business.

Sex is a game, women are objects, violence is encouraged, selfishness is glamorized, drugs are accepted, and prejudice has no limits. I don`t care if you believe in a god or not, I don`t see how anyone could see our society as moral or good.

We can`t expect perfection, but that doesn`t mean we shouldn`t try.

[Cephus]

Quote by: phoenix_fire Thank you for that same old red herring.

It's not a red herring, it's still a complete and utter failure of the theist position. Sitting around arguing whether an imaginary character in a book likes you or not is pretty damned silly, don't you think?

[Flip Jackson]

Cephus, if it is so silly, why bother even looking at these kinds of threads, let alone posting in them?

I believe it even sillier and significantly more childish to enter into a discussion just to insult as many people as you can. What do you gain from entering a religious discussion just to say, "Uh, theists are stupid?"

Does that make you feel better about yourself?

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Technosoul If God were to pass judgement on America as a nation would He be more likely to give us a passing grade or not? Would or high standards of morality be highly praised by a honest God, or would we be dammed and highly reprimanded for our immorality?

The title question was whether God would "dam" (a barrier, e.g. the Hoover Dam; though I'm sure you meant "damn," meaning to condemn in a judicial sense) America. That's different from what you asked in your post. So, to answer the title question, I would like to put forth something Jesus said would happen:

"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'' Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.' Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." - Matthew 25:31-46 NASB -

Some experts in Bible prophecy have interpreted this passage as indicating that there will be a judgment of the nations when Jesus returns to Earth to establish His 1,000-year reign on Earth.

Here's a song written nearly 30 years ago that dramatically communicates the passage: Keith Green - Sheep and the Goats (mp3 Download link) | MuchMusic.Net (when you get to the site, click on The Sheep and the Goats).

[lsbskins1]

So, say the end comes and I live in a country that did not live by these commands, but I did and was in fact, on death row in this country for advocating that we feed the hungry, clothe the poor and show compassion to those in jail. Would I be damned with my country or judged on my own merits?

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Marilyn Monroe I'd say He'd praise us because overall we're pretty good. Can't expect perfection cause we ain't in heaven yet.

Can't God expect perfection? Jesus said in Matthew 5:48 (ESV), "You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

But let's say that, at the very least, God judges by the standard of His law as set forth in the 10 Commandments. Let's go through them (see Exodus 20:1-17):

"You shall have no other gods before me." Have you ever, at any time in your life, had anything that was more important to you than God?

"You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments." This means more than just making such images/likenesses but having them and it is in the context of having these items as items of devotion/worship, i.e. idols. Much of Christendom would certainly be guilty with the iconography of the Orthodox Church, the statues and pictures in the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches, the little plastic Jesus on the dashboard of some people's cars, pictures of Jesus in people's homes, etc. But what about the Hindus, the ancient Greeks, Romans, Celts, etc.? What about the other ancient societies that had carvings of various deities (violating both of the first two commandments)?

"You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain." Have you ever used "God" or "Jesus" as a curse word or exclamation?

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy." Have you ever worked on the Sabbath?

"Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the LORD your God is giving you." Have you ever rebelled against your parents, shown disrespect toward them or dishonored them in any way?

"You shall not murder." Even if you've never murdered anyone, have you ever hated anyone? The Apostle John wrote (1 John 3:15) that whoever hates his brother (meaning any human) is a murderer.

"You shall not commit adultery." Jesus said that whoever looks at someone lustfully has already committed adultery with that person: have you ever looked at anyone lustfully?

"You shall not steal." Have you ever taken anything that wasn't yours, no matter how small? How about stealing time from your employer by spending a little bit more time on break than you were supposed to or by chatting with co-workers when you were supposed to be working?

"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor." Have you ever said something about someone that wasn't true? Have you ever said that someone said something they didn't say or that they did something they didn't do? Have you ever said that something written said something it didn't say? Have you ever lied?

"You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor's." Have you ever wanted to have something someone else had? Let's say you saw someone driving down the street in a really nice car: have you ever wished you had that car?

[Chancellor]

Quote by: lsbskins1 So, say the end comes and I live in a country that did not live by these commands, but I did and was in fact, on death row in this country for advocating that we feed the hungry, clothe the poor and show compassion to those in jail. Would I be damned with my country or judged on my own merits?

Humans have no merits: all are guilty. However, if this does refer specifically to the judgment of nations, then we're talking about the actions of governments (the people in government carrying out the policies of government) and not of their citizens. There is a separate judgment for individuals. Notice also that the standard to be used in the judgment of the nations is specific: "I was hungry...thirsty...sick...in prison..."

And actually this judgment doesn't occur at the end. There's an entire 1,000 years between this judgment and the end.

[lindsay7]

Quote by: lsbskins1 So, say the end comes and I live in a country that did not live by these commands, but I did and was in fact, on death row in this country for advocating that we feed the hungry, clothe the poor and show compassion to those in jail. Would I be damned with my country or judged on my own merits?

Everyone is always judged on their own merits when they die, based on what they did while they were alive.

But while we are living in a country - if that country falls from greatness into poverty and chaos, everyone there will suffer from it.

I don't think God damns a nation in the sense that He causes it to fall. We do that ourselves. What he will do is let things run their course to the inevitable ruin if we don't change our ways.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: lindsay7 I don't think God damns a nation in the sense that He causes it to fall. We do that ourselves. What he will do is let things run their course to the inevitable ruin if we don't change our ways.

I refer you to Daniel 2:20-21 (ESV):

"Daniel answered and said: "Blessed be the name of God forever and ever, to whom belong wisdom and might. He changes times and seasons; he removes kings and sets up kings; he gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to those who have understanding." (Bold print is mine).

[lindsay7]

Quote by: Chancellor I refer you to Daniel 2:20-21 (ESV): "Daniel answered and said: "Blessed be the name of God forever and ever, to whom belong wisdom and might. He changes times and seasons; he removes kings and sets up kings; he gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to those who have understanding." (Bold print is mine).

That's interesting.. I wonder how much of an active role God takes

[Chancellor]

Quote by: lindsay7 That's interesting.. I wonder how much of an active role God takes

I guess we'll find out, won't we?

[Morality Games]

moral relativism

Has moral objectivism performed better? My experience is that it contributes to fostering an unpleasant and incompetent mentality. People complain a great deal about how terrible moral relativism is, but I have yet to find someone who has called themselves a moral objectivist who hasn't had a number of crippling vices they were completely unaware of.

Whether someone calls themselves a moral objectivist or relativist really makes no difference, because both judge things in light of how effectively they work for them, generally at the expense of other people.

[lsbskins1]

Quote by: Chancellor Humans have no merits: all are guilty. However, if this does refer specifically to the judgment of nations, then we're talking about the actions of governments (the people in government carrying out the policies of government) and not of their citizens. There is a separate judgment for individuals. Notice also that the standard to be used in the judgment of the nations is specific: "I was hungry...thirsty...sick...in prison..." And actually this judgment doesn't occur at the end. There's an entire 1,000 years between this judgment and the end.

Thank you, Saint Augustine. But if you would prefer, I could think of you as Luther or Calvin. Anyway...if, on the day of judgement (insert what I said before) and I had been a senator, would I be damned with my country or would the blessings of God's grace be upon me? (Happy Now?)

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Chancellor The title question was whether God would "dam" (a barrier, e.g. the Hoover Dam; though I'm sure you meant "damn," meaning to condemn in a judicial sense) America. That's different from what you asked in your post. So, to answer the title question, I would like to put forth something Jesus said would happen: "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'' Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.' Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." - Matthew 25:31-46 NASB - Some experts in Bible prophecy have interpreted this passage as indicating that there will be a judgment of the nations when Jesus returns to Earth to establish His 1,000-year reign on Earth. Here's a song written nearly 30 years ago that dramatically communicates the passage: Keith Green - Sheep and the Goats (mp3 Download link) | MuchMusic.Net (when you get to the site, click on The Sheep and the Goats).

Typo error - Damm as in damnation. One way ticket to distruction.

The rest of your post did not directly answer the question concerning America. Would America (as it is right now) be a nation of goats or a nation of sheep?

Obama's preacher said that America would be dammed not blessed. And so I wanted to find out if most religions say the same thing. Because Obama came under fire because of his relationship with that preacher (Rev Wright). The CNN reporters were shocked to hear that Obama's preacher and life long mentor would find fault with the motto "God bless America" and that he said God would damm America.

No one voted that God would bless us. A lot of people voted that God would damm us, and some voted "other" (whatever that might be?).

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: Chancellor Can't God expect perfection? Jesus said in Matthew 5:48 (ESV), "You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

I'm not a literalist of the bible. I believe showing love and concern for others is most important and Americans have become much more giving, at least what I'm seeing, course I'm living in the south nowadays as opposed to growing up in the northeast. The northerners were a tad more selfish, but still they'd help you out when you were in need.

I think we have to strive to be like Jesus, and this would be perfection. I don't believe God actually expects us to be exactly like Him in all things cause we are mortal.

But let's say that, at the very least, God judges by the standard of His law as set forth in the 10 Commandments. Let's go through them (see Exodus 20:1-17): "You shall have no other gods before me." Have you ever, at any time in your life, had anything that was more important to you than God?

I always took that as meaning false gods. He is saying not to have these gods before Him, so that could be leaving the door open to say astrology and some of that mumbo jumbo as long as God came first. There are things that can be very important, but God is always in the background. He's there. That's the main thing. I don't think it's all that complicated.

"You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain." Have you ever used "God" or "Jesus" as a curse word or exclamation?

Yes, but usually I try to apologize. I don't use it literally, though, like God really damn someone, it's just an expression, and it's the context more than just the words to me. Now praying that God will curse someone, that might be vengeful, and God wouldn't like that.

I'm not getting into the rest of the commandments cause they are mostly all sins that are common amongst humans. They are sinful to committ, but God will forgive you for them if you are sorry. That doesn't mean you should do them, but sometimes there will be slipups. Honoring the mother and father is such an open-ended commandment, but murder or killing is pretty cut and dry, with exceptions such as war and self-defense.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: Flip Jackson And, Marilyn Monroe, I really hope you are joking. Do you really feel that we are a moral people in this day and age? We are just as immoral, if not more so, than any time in the history of the world. The only difference is that we find it "acceptable" nowadays. For example, adultery used to be taboo. Now it is accepted and commonplace. Lying used to be considered a horrible thing. Now we justify it in everything from elementary school to big business. Sex is a game, women are objects, violence is encouraged, selfishness is glamorized, drugs are accepted, and prejudice has no limits. I don`t care if you believe in a god or not, I don`t see how anyone could see our society as moral or good. We can`t expect perfection, but that doesn`t mean we shouldn`t try.

Some have rationalized some things into a new morality, but a whole lot of people still don't commonly go out and do all the sex crap. Young people do it cause they are immature, and this is because the parents have lost control, but usually people come around because all that stuff gets tiring after a while. People are more immature longer these days, and that's sad to me cause immaturity is wasting your life, but if that's what they want, so be it.

I think overall even with all the immorality we are still a very good society. We are a very large society, so it's not going to be perfect, even if smaller it wouldn't be.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: lsbskins1 Thank you, Saint Augustine. But if you would prefer, I could think of you as Luther or Calvin. Anyway...if, on the day of judgement (insert what I said before) and I had been a senator, would I be damned with my country or would the blessings of God's grace be upon me? (Happy Now?)

As I said earlier: if this does refer specifically to the judgment of nations, then we're talking about the actions of governments (the people in government carrying out the policies of government) and not of their citizens. Notice also that the judgment of the nations is very specific.