"The Atheist's Wager", A turn on Pascal

[ItsDarts]

I saw this on an atheist site and kind of liked it and thought I'd share it here.... it goes like this...

The Atheist's Wager:

Why don’t you just be an atheist? If there is a god, and it is moral and loving and worthy of respect, then it won’t mind if people have rational doubts about it and rational reasons for not believing in it. This god won’t punish people for exercising their critical thinking skills and are skeptical of the claims of other, fallible humans. Thus, you wouldn’t lose anything.

And if there is a god who punishes people for rational doubt, why would you want to spend an eternity with it anyway? Such a capricious, egotistical, and nasty god wouldn’t be much fun. If you can’t trust it to be as moral as you are, you can’t trust it to keep its promises and make heaven nice or even let you stay for long. Not spending eternity with such a being doesn’t sound like much of a loss.

I’m not asking you to choose atheism — that doesn’t make much sense, obviously. However, I am asking you to take atheism seriously. I am asking you to consider that atheism might be at least as reasonable as theism, and in fact might actually be much more reasonable. I am asking you to be more skeptical about religion and ask harder, more critical questions about traditional beliefs, regardless of where the consequences take you.

Perhaps your beliefs will be unchanged — but after being questioned, they should be stronger. Perhaps some of the details of your beliefs will change, but you will remain a theist — but this new position should be stronger. And, if you do end up an atheist because you lose any good reasons to continue with your current religion and/or current theism, what have you really lost? Source

So my questions are this.... does it make sense? Is it a rational point of view in your atheistic or theistic minds? Can this be easily shredded in a debate?

Discuss.....

[Morality Games]

And here I thought a thread like the Atheist's Wager would say something along the lines, "Since you believe your innermost character is immortal, why don't you pound a nail into the regions of your brain which 'legend says' manage emotion and / or memory?"

Anyway, to be on topic, one reason is that faith is emotional and thought has trouble overcoming emotion -- partially because the emotion itself is likely to distort the idea-outcome of the thinking process. It would take genuine doubt in God to actually make someone lower their faith enough to allow them to take atheism seriously as a position.

[HelioPrime]

I can't speak for everyone but I think most theists are happy the way things are.

We just try and overlook the atheists rants on how religion kill, is irrational, etc etc...

I think it's the atheists who should take a look at their belief's or lack of them, they seem to be the angry ones always commenting on religion like an envious child.

[JaneDoe321]

I've seen similar essays, and I find them fun, but not very likely to lead to anything tangible.

As far as "commenting on religion like an envious child" (the obvious multiple insults ignored...) I tend to think that overall the amount of passion that is "visible" in atheists tends to correlate with how much crap they put up with on a regular basis from theists.

"Most" theists may be happy to live and let live. The problem isn't with "most theists". The problem is with theists who try to force everybody to live by *their* religious rules. I can't buy alcohol on Sunday? It's illegal to sell sex toys? My kids have to recite religious doctrine in public school?! Etc.

I don't think I know a single atheist who is "envious" of religion per se. Resentful of the intrusion religion seems to make in personal lives, well, yes. I do resent that people use their constitutionally guaranteed "freedom" to try to take away *my* constitutionally guaranteed freedom.

And I tend to get the "Oh yeah?! Well you heathens are taking prayer out of ..." (fill in the blank). I never quite get that. Probably for as long as there has been some kind of organized educational institution kids have been praying in some way or another for assistance on tests. They don't need a special time set aside for them so everybody can see what good little Christians they are, pious and devout (at least for those 30 seconds or whatever, until they hit the playground and are acting like barbarians), or whatever. Just do your thing, live and let live. Just don't expect the world to come screeching to a halt to *watch* and *support* you doing your thing. It's personal, so keep it that way.

I will say at times I do sometimes wish I was a follower of Santaria or some other very colorful and controversial-to-the-mainstream religion so I could raise eyebrows at the next major school assembly and get my "equal exposure". But that's as far as my "envy" goes. That and the lack of government sanctioned days off work that are in any way meaningful to me. I'd happily trade in Christmas for a couple of days off for GroundHog Day.

[ItsDarts]

I see this as something to throw back at the theist who likes to use Pascals Wager as their argument for belief. In addition to this, I would add that they don't know for sure they are worshiping the right god in light of the thousands of gods throughout history and even if they are, can they be sure their god likes them to "wager" their faith in such a mannor as to say "I believe because if it is true, then I've hedged my bets.... or some such nonsense.

As for the Holiday thing, I'm not sure I agree with you Jane. As it stands now (at least in America) most of the religious holidays have been secularized. We now call Christmas/New Years "The Holiday Season" and we call Easter, "Spring Break" and truthfully, I like having the free time off, paid, for what ever reason. I don't get all the funky bank holidays off, but at the "Holiday Season" I get a week off to make up for those bank holidays. If I throw in a couple of personal vacation days to this, I can get upto 16 days off including weekends for the price of 2 or 3 vacation days.

So far, no one has attacked the Wager itself, so it must be something worth considering, at least when an atheist is presented with Pascals Wager. :)

[HelioPrime]

Hmm we still get the "christmas" bonus at by job. Then again it is a private company.

Macy's still plays songs over the season along with other stores that include christian songs. At the Rockafeller tree lighting they played Christ the Lord among other songs. And TV adds still refer to christmas and easter.

I think the better term is these holidays are being "commercialized" , not made more secular. The media and companies are not actively trying to reduce any religious messages, but to cash in on consumers.

[Sonart]

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I like mine better...


Daniel's Wager -- "Given that the vast amounts of rationally explained scientific knowledge we now possess were all once unexplainable phenomena which we attributed to the workings of gods, the best bet is that those things we still don't know also have rational, scientific explanations that do not include gods. We just don't know what they are yet."


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[Cephus]

Quote by: HelioPrime I think it's the atheists who should take a look at their belief's or lack of them, they seem to be the angry ones always commenting on religion like an envious child.

Hardly. If you had someone trying to force their beliefs on you through force of law (as theists do), tried to misappropriate taxpayer money (as theists do), insulted you at every turn (as theists do), and told everyone that you weren't moral enough to hold any major political office (as theists do), you'd be pissed too.

Last I checked, we were supposed to be a SECULAR nation. Figure it out.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Cephus Last I checked, we were supposed to be a SECULAR nation. Figure it out.

Where does it say that?

I'm not implying the nation was intended to be a christian one, but if in some states the majority of the population want that then I see no reason why the minorities should try and fight this.

[Morality Games]

I'm not implying the nation was intended to be a christian one, but if in some states the majority of the population want that then I see no reason why the minorities should try and fight this.

Because that's theocratic, not democratic.

Democracies are not primarily about majorities getting their way. They are about letting majorities exert more power than has been the case in past societies because it is the most realistic manner of securing fairness. Even so, democracies (including this one) acknowledge that the judgment of the majority is fallible, which is why there are safeguards in place to ensure that majorities don't tear the society apart through selfishness and mob rule.

I think it's the atheists who should take a look at their belief's or lack of them, they seem to be the angry ones always commenting on religion like an envious child.

Atheists and theists resent each other and treat one another badly on more or less equal terms (because being human necessarily comes before being an atheist or theist, and it is all too human to resent or treat badly those who exhibit features contrary to your own).

[Sonart]

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Quote by: HelioPrime I think it's the atheists who should take a look at their belief's or lack of them, they seem to be the angry ones always commenting on religion like an envious child.

I beg to differ... you're not the one who has spent their entire life listening to respected "Men of God" telling millions of my fellow citizens, and millions of my fellow citizens telling each other, that >I< am the moral equivalent of murderers, rapists, child molesters and communists, that >I< am a source of evil, that >I< am immoral by definition and that >I< deserve to suffer unspeakable agony for all eternity, simply because I happen to believe something differently.

But after a lifetime of that, am I bitter??? Nah, not me.

Quote by: HelioPrime Where does it say that?

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

In 1863, Congress made a law respecting an establishment of religion on our national currency. A clear violation of the Constitution.

In 1868, Congress made a law respecting an establishment of religion on our paper currency. Another clear violation.

In 1954, Congress made a law respecting an establishment of religion in our school children's Pledge of Allegiance, yet another clear violation.

And, in 1957 Congress made yet another law respecting an establishment of religion in our National Motto.

No where has any individual been denied the right to their personal free expression of religion, except where it interfered with the rights of others.

Quote by: HelioPrime I'm not implying the nation was intended to be a christian one, but if in some states the majority of the population want that then I see no reason why the minorities should try and fight this.

Fine. And if in some states the majority of the population -- as was the case in the Jim Crow South -- wants blacks to be segregated and repressed, do you see any reason why the minority should try and fight it?

Quote by: Morality Games Atheists and theists resent each other and treat one another badly on more or less equal terms

Bullsh!t. What atheists want more than anything is to be accepted as equals within our own society and not universally condemned as evil by definition.

Theists despise atheists simply for what we think... atheists despise theists for the way they treat us, insult us and condemn us. Big difference.

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[lindsay7]

As a Christian, I LIKE the seperation of church and state, and want it to continue forever. I think it PROTECTS religious freedom. For example, I certainly wouldn't want the Roman Catholic Church involved in government! That would scare the **** out of me. Inquisitions anyone? No, the seperation of church and state protects all our freedoms, athiest and thiest alike. Churches who want to get involved in government scare me!!!!!!!!!!!

And I don't despise or resent athiests. Not too long ago I was an athiest, and all my friends are still athiests.

I don't try to convert them. I know that you can't talk someone into having a relationship with God. You can help open the door by answering questions if they are interested, and by doing your best to show what it's about (by living a loving life - following Jesus teachings) but it's their own personal journey.

Life doesnt have to be ATHIEST VS THIEST. I see a lot of that on this forum, but does anyone live like that in real life? It doesnt make any sense.

[Cephus]

Quote by: HelioPrime Where does it say that?

The founding fathers debated religion in politics several times and every single time, it was voted down. They knew that religion has no place in politics, why don't you?

I'm not implying the nation was intended to be a christian one, but if in some states the majority of the population want that then I see no reason why the minorities should try and fight this.

George Washington in the Treaty of Tripoli, "The United States is in no sense founded upon the Christian religion." Further, the Constitution is quite clear that it does not allow the majority to take advantage of and run roughshod over the minority. It is not permitted to violate the rights of the minority, period.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: HelioPrime I can't speak for everyone but I think most theists are happy the way things are.

Early childhood conditioning will do that.

We just try and overlook the atheists rants on how religion kill, is irrational, etc etc...

Silly atheists... demanding all that intellectual honesty... who's got the time for that crap?

I think it's the atheists who should take a look at their belief's or lack of them, they seem to be the angry ones always commenting on religion like an envious child.

There's only so long you can deal with grown adults who are intelligent yet functionally insane in specific ways before you want to smack them and tell them to grow up. So you'll have to excuse us: we're sick of dealing with peers who believe Santa Claus is literally at the north pole (or the Christian equivalent).

[Fangrim]

Quote by: Cephus Further, the Constitution is quite clear that it does not allow the majority to take advantage of and run roughshod over the minority. It is not permitted to violate the rights of the minority, period.

Warrants?

How is the Constitution "quite clear" on the subject?

I'm expecting textual evidence with analysis as to why that particular text substantiates your claim.

[jrcbailey]

Quote by: Sonart Daniel's Wager -- "Given that the vast amounts of rationally explained scientific knowledge we now possess were all once unexplainable phenomena which we attributed to the workings of gods, the best bet is that those things we still don't know also have rational, scientific explanations that do not include gods. We just don't know what they are yet."

I definintely concur with your wager, but I doubt it's going to sway many thiests nowadays, because their faith has adapted to accepting the shifting scientific scene. But don't think for a second that I'm arguing against you, I'm just trying to explain what they (thiests) would probably try to explain. Despite the fact that the argument is quite obviously fallable, in that it is contradictory!

Quote by: ItsDarts So my questions are this.... does it make sense? Is it a rational point of view in your atheistic or theistic minds? Can this be easily shredded in a debate?

The statement makes perfect sense, and is completely rational if you're a freethinking athiest or thiest - one of which I'm sure everyone in this forum is. It's just a shame that the clergy doesn't encourage its "flock" at a young age to think in such a critical way, despite the fact it's obvious what the beliefs of the author are. I think that if it doesn't turn thiests into athiests, it would atleast force them to form rational reasons for why they believe in what they do.

Nevertheless, I'm sure that if they were taught to disect their beliefs in a proper and thorough way, they would soon find inconsistencies in what they believe, and a rational way of thinking. Not to mention negating evidence of advances in scientific knowledge since the ancient holy scriptures were written.

[Morality Games]

Bullsh!t. What atheists want more than anything is to be accepted as equals within our own society and not universally condemned as evil by definition.

This is "the white man is evil because he kills the buffalos just for the furs and the Native American is good because he kills the buffalos and makes use of every bit of it" mentality, and I wouldn't condone it even if it emerged from the deepest wells of truth, because it is all together too polarizing to be constructive.

[Whilletal]

[quote=JaneDoe321;486559]

"Most" theists may be happy to live and let live. Thank you for being reasonable and rational. I can say with certainty this theist feels your right on target.

[lindsay7]

Bullsh!t. What atheists want more than anything is to be accepted as equals within our own society and not universally condemned as evil by definition. Theists despise atheists simply for what we think... atheists despise theists for the way they treat us, insult us and condemn us. Big difference.

Right... athiests are soooooo persecuted in our society. I don't know how you manage from one day to the next. You are so strong to keep going. Some might even call you a hero.

Seriously, i don't understand the almost histerical hatred for religion on this forum. I can have a conversation about God with one of my athiest friends, and it would be as if we were discussing any other topic. There are no high emotions involved, and he doesn't think less of me for believing. We are interested in and respect each others views, and that's it. It's civilized.

I question why there is so much anger on this forum. maybe i'm just a laid back canadian, but i think everyone needs to relax

[Zhavric]

Quote by: lindsay7 Right... athiests are soooooo persecuted in our society. I don't know how you manage from one day to the next. You are so strong to keep going. Some might even call you a hero.

I'll remember this the next time you attempt to play the "everyone hates on Christians" card.

Seriously, i don't understand the almost histerical [sic] hatred for religion on this forum. I can have a conversation about God with one of my athiest friends, and it would be as if we were discussing any other topic. There are no high emotions involved, and he doesn't think less of me for believing. We are interested in and respect each others views, and that's it. It's civilized.

It's astounding yet predictable how theists characterize challenges to their invalid world view as "histerical".

I question why there is so much anger on this forum.

There's a political bumper sticker that also applies to Christianity and most mainstream religions: "If you're not outraged then you're not paying attention."