Atheists.. they go to Hell

[lindsay7]

Quote by: Tycoon That's what you say when an obvious contradiction is pointed out? You're definately clinging to your faith against all reasoning.

I've just gotten used to the bible containing parables and metaphors, and using terms in different ways than we are used to.

[Tycoon]

I'm not saying that time has anything to do with light, I'm just pointing out that in Genesis, light was called "day". That was how the term "day" was used.

Then this is only proof that even the most basic concept of Christianity, the creation of night and day, was fabricated by humans. God wouldn't have skrewed up His terminology, would he? Day can't exist because it only exists as the definition of time according to a planet and its Sun.

Besides, how the Hell would anybody know this anyways? How did they decide that this was what God did? They weren't around to see it.

[Tycoon]

I've just gotten used to the bible containing parables and metaphors, and using terms in different ways than we are used to.

You mean you've gotten used to the fact that nothing in the bible contains any logic or reason.

[lindsay7]

Quote by: Tycoon Then this is only proof that even the most basic concept of Christianity, the creation of night and day, was fabricated by humans. God wouldn't have skrewed up His terminology, would he? Day can't exist because it only exists as the definition of time according to a planet and its Sun. Besides, how the Hell would anybody know this anyways? How did they decide that this was what God did? They weren't around to see it.

They know it because they must have been shown. And God didn't choose the terminology they used to describe it. They described it as best they could.

[Tycoon]

They know it because they must have been shown. And God didn't choose the terminology they used to describe it. They described it as best they could.

Shown. So now your entire argument hinges on the fact that the humans who wrote the bible were shown by God. God who doesn't actually talke to anybody. Tell me, when's the last time you and God talked?

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to waste my time debating your feelings or extremely hypothetical assumptions.

[lindsay7]

Quote by: Tycoon Shown. So now your entire argument hinges on the fact that the humans who wrote the bible were shown by God. God who doesn't actually talke to anybody. Tell me, when's the last time you and God talked?

Yes I believe that those who wrote the bible were shown. God used them for his purpose. No, God has never talked to me.

[navyrkh]

Y'know how sometimes you can look at a simple word for too long, and suddenly it just stops making sense. It's spelling looks wrong, it sounds wrong, it just looks meaningless. Well, this is how I've always felt every time folks turned teary eyed and blissful when some preacher intoned how, "for God so loved us that he sacrificed his only begotten Son so that we might live with him forever." LOL!! That has got to be the DUMBEST, most illogical, most convoluted rationalization for historic events that folks have ever come up with. It's ALMOST as absurd as the Holy Trinity. Say what?!?!

Wow, you just confirmed what I've been saying. There's actually a verse for it (you don't look suprised :( ) "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1 Corinthians 1:18. Where to begin? Well, first you should do a bit of research on Old Testament Messianic prophecy to find out how much sense it really does make. There was a guy in the 1st century named Saul who went around throwing early Christians into prison and approved of killing them. He (like you) didn't understand what the big deal was about Jesus. Then he had an encounter with Jesus while he was on his way to harm more Christians at Damascus. Long story short, that Christ hating dude Saul became the Apostle Paul and wrote more books in the New Testament than anyone else. He wrote that verse I quoted. I suggest you actually read at least the New Testament and pray to the God of the Bible about what you read before you cast it aside as just hocus-pocus-pie-in-the-sky stuff. C'mon, smart chaps like you guys should be able to cover it in a weeks time. Ok, how about just one book in the Bible? Read John and I dare you to pray (sincerely if at all possible) to the God of the Bible and ask Him to show Himself to you.

[Tycoon]

Yes I believe that those who wrote the bible were shown. God used them for his purpose. No, God has never talked to me.

Well I'm sorry, but I don't think anybody's going to waste time debating this if the bottom line is an extremely hypothetical assumption based on no evidence whatsoever.

[Jack]

"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1 Corinthians 1:18

That's nothing more than an escape clause. It prevents those afraid of condemnation from questioning the absurdities of their belief. If you say it doesn't make any sense, you're among the condemned. So you'd better say it makes sense to you if you want to be saved. All those who say it doesn't aren't on god's side. It's a tactic for keeping believers in line and stop them from critically examining their beliefs. Don't anybody mention the emperor isn't wearing pants.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: navyrkh Wow, you just confirmed what I've been saying. There's actually a verse for it (you don't look suprised :( ) "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1 Corinthians 1:18.

Navryrkh, if I countered by quoting the Principia Discordia, would it mean anything whatsoever to you?

Then why in the world would I give a rat's ass what Paul wrote 2,000 years ago? It's like Isherwood said, being told I should love how the Emperor looks in his new duds simply because I'm afraid of not being accepted is silly, and I really don't care what the Bible says. It's just a book, an anthology of chronicles by some religious fanatics written in a time that, if I had appeared with a bottle of aspirin and a Bic lighter, I too could have been a god.

Oh, and by the way... as I mentioned on another thread, when I was 18 I asked Jesus to come into my life. It was swell for a few months until, one day... *PING* ...it hit me that I was just kidding myself, and that I really didn't buy ANY of it.

Go ahead, let's hear a quote on what the Bible has to say about that.

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[wyoguy]

Now that Lindsay and Navy have been nastily treated by our local gang of self-proclaimed intellects. I would like to commend them both for having the courage to go to bat for the gospel. I hope that your bravery can be extended to your everyday lives as well and not be limited by the anonymity of the www. They are also to be given a round of applause for being the tiny minority of folks who actually kept to the spirit of the ORIGINAL POST.

I'll reprint it here for the kids that are just too plain lazy, self-assured, or both to look for themselves.

What are your thoughts on atheists? This thread is under the premise that Hell is a real place and it's just like Jesus himself describes it as and the only way into Heaven is through faith in Christ and all that jazz.

Historic Church Documents at Reformed.org

I'm gonna put this link in here just in case you all haven't seen it before. The church that I attend holds the Heidelberg Catechism, Belgic Confession, and the Canons of Dordt to be faithful and consistant with scripture as doctrinal guides. I heartily recommend them to all believers and especially to new believers (Lindsay). For the faithful, they are some of the most riveting pieces written in the last 600 years. For the atheists, they are the most laboriously dull works ever commited to print.

[wyoguy]

Quote by: Sonart . Oh, and by the way... as I mentioned on another thread, when I was 18 I asked Jesus to come into my life. It was swell for a few months until, one day... *PING* ...it hit me that I was just kidding myself, and that I really didn't buy ANY of it. Go ahead, let's hear a quote on what the Bible has to say about that. .

Matthew 13:

On the same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the sea. And great multitudes were gathered together to Him, so that He got into a boat and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.Then He spoke many things to them in parables, saying: “Behold, a sower went out to sow.
And as he sowed, some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds came and devoured them.
Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth. But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away. And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them. But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!” And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:
‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;

For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.’

But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it. “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

HOW DAT?

[JaneDoe321]

well, if my portion of the seeds have fallen on stony ground, it's all part of God's Great And Infinte Plan® so it's all good.



At least Raëlism doesn't claim infallibility in the "creators". I could forgive alien scientists if they made imperfect humans.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: wyoguy Now that Lindsay and Navy have been nastily treated by our local gang of self-proclaimed intellects. I would like to commend them both for having the courage to go to bat for the gospel.

Aren't you being kind to yourselves. Anywhere else in America, it would take courage to admit you were an atheist.

And where did anyone here "proclaim" themselves to be intellects? Perhaps you just presumed it because we happen to be speaking intelligently.

Quote by: wyoguy Matthew 13: On the same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the sea.... blah blah blah HOW DAT?

{{YAWN}}

"I think life should be more like tv. I think all of life's problems ought to be solved in 30 minutes with simple homilies, don't you? I think weight and oral hygiene ought to be our biggest concerns. I think we should all have powerful, high-paying jobs, and everyone should drive fancy sports cars. All our desires should be instantly gratified. Women should always wear tight clothes, and men should carry powerful handguns. Life overall should be more glamorous, thrill-packed, and filled with applause, don't you think?" -- Calvin

Here, wyoguy... please answer this question.


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[Winter wind]

Quote by: Lullaby Atheists.. they go to Hell What are your thoughts on atheists?

I should have known...things never change. Ever.

The answer to all your questions are simply...no.
So in essence I'm a Christian who thinks the Bible has its fallibilities and thinks that good will towards man is good enough.

Religion doesn't hurt in my opinion though.

Ya, We've already established I'm strange for a Christian (I take into account what makes sense.)

Edit: Crap, I didn't realize this was 5 pages long. I'll read it asap. But I want to go to bed soon so...
(Oh and if nothing else, I want to complement Lindsay7 on his/her sweat taste in avitars. Nice picture.)

Quote by: halo But since atheists don't believe that there is a god, then wouldn't we be doomed to hell?

This came from ages ago, but I still have to respond. I think Atheists would call it your inner holy ghost by another name. Same with other religions and so on. But no exact translations.

Quote by: lindsay7 The bible says that the earth was created within a matter of days, but this isn't literal, 24 hours days. It's a metaphor, a place holder for an amount of time. God is outside of time and space, where God exists, there is no time.

I've been looking for this argument. And considering there were no literal days until the sun was created anyway...

Quote by: sonart Number one, how do you know that God is outside time and space? He/She tell you, or is that simply a convenient explanation that allows you to wiggle out of the subsequent debunking of obsolete Biblical scientific knowledge... or lack thereof?

God defies current human logic, therefore giving the Christians the easier side of this argument. God can do whatever God wants, Including defy time and space. This will always be a hard argument to fight against.
Doesn't that just suck for all the Atheists? ;p

Genesis also said that God created day and night... and then, three days later, created the sun. Not THAT'S a neat trick, since day and night are DEFINED by the sun. Are you now going to tell me that God is outside of time, space and language?

Hey, God speaks Hebrew. The Christians have translated it from that to other things, and I can't help if they screwed that up.

Quote by: navyrkh First off, God's Word is perfect and does not contradict itself.

Say what you want, it certainly develops into something different halfway through.

Quote by: Tycoon A major contradiction of the very first part of the bible! You are merely trying to cling onto your faith because you think it will earn you something, despite the many obvious flaws and contradictions.

I think your jumping to conclusions. Motivations are hard to pin down even when they are your own.

Anyhoo, I'm sticking to the faith for reasons unrelated to the Bible.

Quote by: Tycoon To my knowledge most people only believe in God because they were raised to believe in God and because they think if they stop believing they will go to Hell.

Valid, but is a hasty conclusion to say that "most people" includes us (though I probably fall in that category in some sense.)

I'm sorry to say, but in attempting to prove that Genesis doesn't contradict science you're only creating more contradictions. Day and night would have no meaning without anything to define them (i.e. the Earth and the Sun). Therefore the planets and the stars were created before day and night. It also defies the Big Bang theory.

Meaning Moses, or whoever wrote Genesis didn't get the memo.

I think that's just a translation problem. Not just language. Try telling the slaves of Egypt about the Big Bang and the Bible actually being understood.

This is the goal of the Bible.

Quote by: Isherwood Exactly the point. The terms are used in that passage because humans wrote it, humans who couldn't imagine anything beyond days and nights. Actually it's translated "evening and morning", so it's even more off base in saying that evening and morning (essentially night) was the first day, second day, et cetera. Had the writers of the Talmud understood what caused night and day they might have chosen to be a bit more metaphysical in describing the creation story.

What I just wrote above to Tycoon should fit this well enough.

[wyoguy]

Quote by: Sonart . Here, wyoguy... please answer this question. .

Blah, blah, blah.... There..... I saved you the time since that's all you're apparently going to percieve my response as anyway.

[Jack]

God defies current human logic, therefore giving the Christians the easier side of this argument. God can do whatever God wants, Including defy time and space. This will always be a hard argument to fight against.

Not really. The god described in the Bible doesn't defy logic, or at least no reason is given to suppose he does. It's just that the Biblical god acts illogically and irrationally. If that god were a human, he'd be a psychopath. To suggest that somehow god's logic is beyond our own is simply another dodge that allows the idea of the Christian god to escape critical examination.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: wyoguy Blah, blah, blah.... There..... I saved you the time since that's all you're apparently going to percieve my response as anyway.

What's to perceive, wyoguy? "Some people hear the message and get it, and some people hear the message and don't get it, so too bad for them". Thenkyew Jeezuz, that cleared it right up!

See if you can understand this... quoting the Bible to an atheist makes as much sense as quoting Betty Crocker. if I don't believe in God, why would I believe a 2,000 year old parable written by a religious fanatic that basically says, I should believe or else. A stitch in time saves nine... So what!

Ask yourself... if I quoted the Qu'ran telling you to believe in Mohammed, or quote the Upanishads telling you to believe in Shiva, do you imagine you'd slap your forehead and cry, "Ohmigosh, what a powerful message... How could I have been so blind?"

Not.

Now having said that, here's something from the Bible that makes sense to me...

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." -- Matthew 7:12

Would that more Christians didn't apply this teaching when dealing with atheists.

So try again, wyoguy... answer the question. Does she go to Hell?

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[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Isherwood Not really. The god described in the Bible doesn't defy logic, or at least no reason is given to suppose he does. It's just that the Biblical god acts illogically and irrationally. If that god were a human, he'd be a psychopath. To suggest that somehow god's logic is beyond our own is simply another dodge that allows the idea of the Christian god to escape critical examination.

Yet the bible states it is folly to try and attribute human thinking to God.

Why is suggesting God is beyond our thinking an escape? It's written in the bible that God's actions are beyond human understanding. The only reason you claim they are unreasonable is because as an atheist you view everything in terms of pre thought out human logic and demand everything follow those lines.

[Jack]

Yet the bible states it is folly to try and attribute human thinking to God. Why is suggesting God is beyond our thinking an escape? It's written in the bible that God's actions are beyond human understanding.

And since it's written in the Bible it must be...the words of human authors. I think passages like that are a convenient escape clause to excuse believers from having to even try to think clearly and logically about their gods. It's so blatantly obvious to everyone except those who have bought into that mindset and can't remove the blinders from their eyes.

as an atheist you view everything in terms of pre thought out human logic and demand everything follow those lines.

I demand nothing, and what good would it do me if I tried? No, what I see is a world full of natural processes that act consistently, while religion asks us to disregard the evidence we can observe and quantify and instead imagine a thing which goes against everything else we witness around us.