Atheists.. they go to Hell

[freefallife]

Quote by: navyrkh You walk down a street in a foreign town. You look up at a building. Stop. Question: How do you know someone made it? Because it exist, right? Yes, through all your wonderful logic and reasoning you have concluded beyond a shadow of a doubt that some intelligence must of built that building and that it did not come about by chance or random chemicals.

From the watchmaker, to the architect. Interesting, but nevertheless just as invalid. I know the building was created not only because it exists, but because I can and have WATCHED buildings being "created". I can go to school and learn to "create" them myself. I can read libraries full of books about building creation. I know, with just a little investigation, what the creators used to create those buildings. Your analogy fails because no one has ever watched a universe be "created" by ANYONE, least of all an omnipotent being.

It is the same with creation. It exist, there is order and design, therefore there must be a Intelligent Designer. (Notice how I haven't quoted any Scripture?)

And here we get into the problem that if everything in existance has a more intelligent designer, where is the uber-omnipotent being that created God? And since this uber-god exists, where is his creator? Who created the creators creators creator? I think I've made the point.

[lindsay7]

Quote by: Tycoon Almost everything has a scientific explanation. The creation of the Earth has a perfectly sound scientific explanation that completely contradicts the Genesis area of the bible. Some people choose to ignore this contradicition and cling to their belief of God. If the very first part of the Bible is false, what reason is there to believe any of it is true?

The bible says that the earth was created within a matter of days, but this isn't literal, 24 hours days. It's a metaphor, a place holder for an amount of time. God is outside of time and space, where God exists, there is no time.

navyrkh,

Why would I give up partying and having sex with my girlfriend for years just so I can read the Bible and worship God?

Why indeed.
I haven't given up partying and sex. I don't do hard drugs anymore, and I'm in a monogamous relationship. I don't think that being Christian means not having fun, or being in love.

Also, I believe in evolution, and I see no conflict between this and my belief in God. I've always found science fascinating. Yes God created all the creatures in the world, and evolution was how he did it.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: navyrkh You walk down a street in a foreign town. You look up at a building. Stop. Question: How do you know someone made it? Because it exist, right? Yes, through all your wonderful logic and reasoning you have concluded beyond a shadow of a doubt that some intelligence must of built that building and that it did not come about by chance or random chemicals. It is the same with creation. It exist, there is order and design, therefore there must be a Intelligent Designer. (Notice how I haven't quoted any Scripture?)

Well, isn't this about the silliest argument I've heard in some while.

How do I know someone made it? Let me count the ways. For one, because there's a crystal clear trail of evidence regarding who, when and how it was made; from the architect's drawings to the contractor's plans to the developers contracts to the city or town's records.

For another, from experience and evidence - having watched buildings actually being constructed - I recognize the difference between man-made structures and natural geological formations created by... you guessed it... chance and random chemicals.

Can I hear a DUH!!??

Quote by: navyrkh Check out Interactive Bible Home Page Interactive Bible Home Page www.bible.ca and explain to me how your "sound scientific explanation" can explain artifacts depicting fully "evolved" man living with "millions of years old" dinosaurs.

It's complete nonsense, Man didn't live with dinosaurs and "sound scentific explanations" has so far proven it and debunked the Taylor creek footprints years and years ago.

Quote by: navyrkh It doesn't make sense I know, but I actually have a personal relationship with the God of the universe.

That's nice. Congratulations. I hope it works for you. Now please explain why you consider me evil and immoral by definition simply because I think something different?

Quote by: lindsay7 The bible says that the earth was created within a matter of days, but this isn't literal, 24 hours days. It's a metaphor, a place holder for an amount of time. God is outside of time and space, where God exists, there is no time.

Number one, how do you know that God is outside time and space? He/She tell you, or is that simply a convenient explanation that allows you to wiggle out of the subsequent debunking of obsolete Biblical scientific knowledge... or lack thereof?

Genesis also said that God created day and night... and then, three days later, created the sun. Not THAT'S a neat trick, since day and night are DEFINED by the sun. Are you now going to tell me that God is outside of time, space and language?

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[Zhavric]

Quote by: navyrkh First off, God's Word is perfect and does not contradict itself.

Nope. You're wrong.

The bible offers volumes of contradictions both big and small. The fact that you've adopted your own set of logical rules to deal with this in absolutely no way negates the fact that contradictions exist. So, either you're using horrible logic or you're lying. Which is it?

Also, your example of the building is an excellent example of evolution. Not creationism.

[Tycoon]

You walk down a street in a foreign town. You look up at a building. Stop. Question: How do you know someone made it? Because it exist, right? Yes, through all your wonderful logic and reasoning you have concluded beyond a shadow of a doubt that some intelligence must of built that building and that it did not come about by chance or random chemicals. It is the same with creation. It exist, there is order and design, therefore there must be a Intelligent Designer. (Notice how I haven't quoted any Scripture?)

So just because you don't understand why the universe exists that must mean that it was designed by an invisible, omnipotent, and omniscient being? No, somehow I don't think so.

[Tycoon]

Also, I believe in evolution, and I see no conflict between this and my belief in God. I've always found science fascinating. Yes God created all the creatures in the world, and evolution was how he did it.

A major contradiction of the very first part of the bible! You are merely trying to cling onto your faith because you think it will earn you something, despite the many obvious flaws and contradictions.

To my knowledge most people only believe in God because they were raised to believe in God and because they think if they stop believing they will go to Hell.

[Tycoon]

Check out Interactive Bible Home Page Interactive Bible Home Page www.bible.ca and explain to me how your "sound scientific explanation" can explain artifacts depicting fully "evolved" man living with "millions of years old" dinosaurs. Explain how a human leg still in a cowboy boot can be petrified.

I'm sorry, but I'm not about to accept such obviously false evidence from a site so obviously dedicated to religious purposes. If you can provide a trustworthy source that presents the evidence without any alterior motives then we can discuss it.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Tycoon I'm sorry, but I'm not about to accept such obviously false evidence from a site so obviously dedicated to religious purposes. If you can provide a trustworthy source that presents the evidence without any alterior motives then we can discuss it.

What would be a "trustworthy" source then?

It would seem to me anything considered trustworthy. Even a site dedicated to evidence and science likely has ulterior motives. The motives being to dismiss any theistic ideals in favor of strictly none-theism.

[Tycoon]

It would seem to me anything considered trustworthy. Even a site dedicated to evidence and science likely has ulterior motives. The motives being to dismiss any theistic ideals in favor of strictly none-theism.

The point still stands that this information and this source are untrustworthy. Particularly because all other logical evidence points to the opposite conclusion.

[navyrkh]

Hmmm... I feel a bit of tension here, or is it just me? Have any of you ever wondered why you have actual feelings against the suggestion of an Intelligent Designer? Though you won't admit it, partly because you don't understand why you do, inside of you something is angered when people talk about God. You don't go to church because you think everyone there BUT you is kind of crazy and weird (and they are compared to the world). You can't read the Bible because it is a spiritual book that won't make any sense at all until you have been made anew. You easily grab on to any "evidence" that says God doesn't exist or that we came about randomly so that your life has no purpose or CONSEQUENCES. I don't think anyone is evil because they choose not to think or believe in something. I am the worst sinner. I have thought and done more evil than most of you. I deserve nothing but justice because of what I have done morally, my conscience screams against me and condemns me. I could never say or do ANYTHING good enough to earn God's attention much less approval. Christians and priests and saints all deserve to go to Hell just as much as "Atheist". That's the point. Jesus is alive and well and He wants you. He knows you have cool come backs and smart ideas, but He also knows you have a lot of pain and loneliness deep inside. You and I have sinned against God alone and need to ask for forgiveness. But someone had to take your place as payment to satisfy justice, that's what Jesus did on the cross. Lindsay7, please read 1 John, and learn what "repentance" actually means. It's great you have some kind of relationship with God, but how is your relationship with sin? The greatest evidence that you are right with God is that you HATE sin, not people, sin and want to tell them about Jesus.

[lindsay7]

Number one, how do you know that God is outside time and space? He/She tell you, or is that simply a convenient explanation that allows you to wiggle out of the subsequent debunking of obsolete Biblical scientific knowledge... or lack thereof?

The bible says that God is eternal.

And If there is a creator of space and time, a creator of the laws of physics -- he would have to exist outside of those laws which he created.

Genesis also said that God created day and night... and then, three days later, created the sun. Not THAT'S a neat trick, since day and night are DEFINED by the sun. Are you now going to tell me that God is outside of time, space and language?

Genesis says:
And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning-- the first day.

Light is just energy. So God created light before he created the sun and stars. And he called light "day" and darkness "night".

Well by that definition, there would indeed be "days". And by that definition, these "days" had nothing to do with the sun, and so can't be assumed to be the 24 hour periods that WE call days.

The bible was written in the language of the understanding of the men who wrote it. They described what they were shown as best they could. Thus, they used the word "days" to describe a period of time they did not understand.

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I find it interesting to read about physicists who believe in God. Here's a quote that caught my attention...

Arno Penzias, co-discoverer of the microwave background radiation and 1978 Nobel Prize recipient in physics, stated to the New York Times on March 12, 1978:

The best data we have (concerning the big bang) are exactly what I would have predicted, had I nothing to go on but the five books of Moses, the Psalms, the Bible as a whole.

Other religions, such as Hindu for example, believe that the universe is infinitely old, and does not have a beginning from nothing. The Christian bible got it right.

[Tycoon]

Have any of you ever wondered why you have actual feelings against the suggestion of an Intelligent Designer? Though you won't admit it, partly because you don't understand why you do, inside of you something is angered when people talk about God.

I don't have an emotional reaction to be suggesting an intelligent designer. I have logic that proves there is no intelligent designer. The only time when I have an emotional reaction to it is when those who believe in an intelligent designer attempt to use it to condemn or frighten people.

You don't go to church because you think everyone there BUT you is kind of crazy and weird (and they are compared to the world). You can't read the Bible because it is a spiritual book that won't make any sense at all until you have been made anew. You easily grab on to any "evidence" that says God doesn't exist or that we came about randomly so that your life has no purpose or CONSEQUENCES.

I do go to church, I just don't believe in God. I easily grab on to any evidence that says God doesn't exist because there is no evidence that he does. And I still believe that my life has consequences, but the consequences aren't being eternally damned by God, they are consequences from other people who actually exist.

I am the worst sinner. I have thought and done more evil than most of you. I deserve nothing but justice because of what I have done morally, my conscience screams against me and condemns me. I could never say or do ANYTHING good enough to earn God's attention much less approval.

Good. Enjoy your life, because if God exists, He is the true source of all sorrow and suffering in the world. As such, considering there is no evidence whatsoever to support God's existance, I see little reason to believe in He who designed every terrible thing known to man.

Jesus is alive and well and He wants you. He knows you have cool come backs and smart ideas, but He also knows you have a lot of pain and loneliness deep inside. You and I have sinned against God alone and need to ask for forgiveness. But someone had to take your place as payment to satisfy justice, that's what Jesus did on the cross.

It seems to me that God is a design of your guilty conscience.

[Tycoon]

The bible says that God is eternal.

God's being eternal does not prove that he exists in any way, shape, or form. If you refuse to accept the fact that Genesis is an obvious contradiction of science then how about the story of Adam and Eve, and the creation of humanity? Adam created from dirt? Eve created from one of his ribs? Obviously disproven by the theory of evolution.

When there are such obvious contradictions with logic I see no reason to continue to cling to the rest of the bible's teachings. Perhaps you think if you stop believing you will go to Hell? I'll give you a hint. If you stop believing you won't have to worry about Hell at all. Besides, according to almost all Christian teachings you're going there anyways.

[Tycoon]

Light is just energy. So God created light before he created the sun and stars. And he called light "day" and darkness "night".

I'm sorry to say, but in attempting to prove that Genesis doesn't contradict science you're only creating more contradictions. Day and night would have no meaning without anything to define them (i.e. the Earth and the Sun).

Therefore the planets and the stars were created before day and night. It also defies the Big Bang theory.

Light is just energy. So God created light before he created the sun and stars. And he called light "day" and darkness "night". Well by that definition, there would indeed be "days". And by that definition, these "days" had nothing to do with the sun, and so can't be assumed to be the 24 hour periods that WE call days.

Time has nothing to do with light. Time is define by Earth's rotation and Earth's orbit around the Sun. Imagine that the Sun did not produce light. Would there still be time? Yes.

[lindsay7]

Quote by: Tycoon God's being eternal does not prove that he exists in any way, shape, or form. If you refuse to accept the fact that Genesis is an obvious contradiction of science then how about the story of Adam and Eve, and the creation of humanity? Adam created from dirt? Eve created from one of his ribs? Obviously disproven by the theory of evolution.

There's lots about the bible that I don't understand, but I don't think it's the bible that's at fault.

When there are such obvious contradictions with logic I see no reason to continue to cling to the rest of the bible's teachings. Perhaps you think if you stop believing you will go to Hell? I'll give you a hint. If you stop believing you won't have to worry about Hell at all. Besides, according to almost all Christian teachings you're going there anyways.

I believe because it resonates as truth to me. It's hard to explain, but it's something I feel.

I don't claim to have proof that God exists.

Yet famous physicists and other scientists have still kept their faith in God. I don't think it's irrational to believe that there's something else out there. We know so very little about the universe.

I'm sorry to say, but in attempting to prove that Genesis doesn't contradict science you're only creating more contradictions. Day and night would have no meaning without anything to define them (i.e. the Earth and the Sun). Therefore the planets and the stars were created before day and night. It also defies the Big Bang theory.

That's how we define day and night - 24 hour periods in relation to the sun. but according to Genesis, that's not how the terms were used in that passage.

[lindsay7]

Quote by: Tycoon Time has nothing to do with light. Time is define by Earth's rotation and Earth's orbit around the Sun. Imagine that the Sun did not produce light. Would there still be time? Yes.

I'm not saying that time has anything to do with light, I'm just pointing out that in Genesis, light was called "day". That was how the term "day" was used.

I don't know why it was used that way, but I just wanted to point out that's how it was used - it wasn't used to mean a 24 hour period.

[Jack]

That's how we define day and night - 24 hour periods in relation to the sun. but according to Genesis, that's not how the terms were used in that passage.

Exactly the point. The terms are used in that passage because humans wrote it, humans who couldn't imagine anything beyond days and nights. Actually it's translated "evening and morning", so it's even more off base in saying that evening and morning (essentially night) was the first day, second day, et cetera. Had the writers of the Talmud understood what caused night and day they might have chosen to be a bit more metaphysical in describing the creation story.

[lindsay7]

Quote by: Isherwood Exactly the point. The terms are used in that passage because humans wrote it, humans who couldn't imagine anything beyond days and nights. Actually it's translated "evening and morning", so it's even more off base in saying that evening and morning (essentially night) was the first day, second day, et cetera. Had the writers of the Talmud understood what caused night and day they might have chosen to be a bit more metaphysical in describing the creation story.

Yes thank you. That's the point i'm trying to make, you say it better.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: navyrkh Have any of you ever wondered why you have actual feelings against the suggestion of an Intelligent Designer?

The only problem I have with it is when believers in the superstition of ID try to promote it as the equivilent of actual science.

Quote by: navyrkh Though you won't admit it, partly because you don't understand why you do, inside of you something is angered when people talk about God.

Call me crazy, but I suspect it has something to do with millions of believers in God defining me as the scum of the earth, the "moral equivilent of murderers, rapists, child molesters and communists", immoral by definition and deserving of suffering unspeakable agony for all eternity simply because I don't believe in God.

"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." -- President George H.W. Bush

But you know me...overly sensitive.

Quote by: navyrkh You easily grab on to any "evidence" that says God doesn't exist or that we came about randomly so that your life has no purpose or CONSEQUENCES.

This is 'THE BIG LIE' believers tell each other about atheists. To the contrary, my moral compass works just fine, thank you very much, and I absolutely believe that life has purpose and consequences. It's just that the purpose isn't to simply believe in Gawd.

Quote by: navyrkh I don't think anyone is evil because they choose not to think or believe in something. I am the worst sinner.

LOL!! Yeah, right. But you're correct... you're a liar, which definitely makes you a sinner.

Quote by: navyrkh But someone had to take your place as payment to satisfy justice, that's what Jesus did on the cross.

Y'know how sometimes you can look at a simple word for too long, and suddenly it just stops making sense. It's spelling looks wrong, it sounds wrong, it just looks meaningless. Well, this is how I've always felt every time folks turned teary eyed and blissful when some preacher intoned how, "for God so loved us that he sacrificed his only begotten Son so that we might live with him forever."

LOL!! That has got to be the DUMBEST, most illogical, most convoluted rationalization for historic events that folks have ever come up with. It's ALMOST as absurd as the Holy Trinity. Say what?!?!

Quote by: navyrkh The greatest evidence that you are right with God is that you HATE sin, not people,

Yeah, I just love how this idea allows the religious to cruelly discriminate against, for instance, gay people, while telling themselves they actually LOVE gay people. They just hate the SIN of actually being gay. It's a form of 'Tough Love', I guess... We LOVE you, but unfortunately because we LOVE you so much, we can't allow you to participate as an equal in your own society because you keep committing the sin of being what you were born as and over which you have no control.

Quote by: Lindsay I'm not saying that time has anything to do with light, I'm just pointing out that in Genesis, light was called "day". That was how the term "day" was used. I don't know why it was used that way, but I just wanted to point out that's how it was used - it wasn't used to mean a 24 hour period.

What else can it mean?

"Genesis -- 3: And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4: And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5: And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

14: And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16: And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17: And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18: And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19: And the evening and the morning were the fourth day."

Isherwood's point was that the writers of Genesis were so ignorant of basic science that they didn't understand that Day and Night were caused by the Sun shining on the earth as it spun on it's axis. One would think that an Omnipotent, Omniscient God would not allow the chroniclers of His word to make such a silly muckup of how Creation actually took place.

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[Tycoon]

There's lots about the bible that I don't understand, but I don't think it's the bible that's at fault.

That's what you say when an obvious contradiction is pointed out? You're definately clinging to your faith against all reasoning.

I believe because it resonates as truth to me. It's hard to explain, but it's something I feel.

Sorry, but your feelings can't exactly be debated...

Yet famous physicists and other scientists have still kept their faith in God. I don't think it's irrational to believe that there's something else out there. We know so very little about the universe.

We know a lot about the universe. Just because we don't know everything doesn't mean we should start believing in something that there is no proof for. The answers will come eventually...