Homosexuality in the View of a Christian

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: another day Quite. That's exactly what I said isn't it. Simply put, don't act surprised that religion is interpreted and wielded in this manner. It's the nature of the beast. Over the years this is what religion has been used for above all else. This "peace, love" stuff was never the predominate theme in christianity, despite what Jesus may have said. The "turn the other cheek and love thy neighbor" stuff is apparently glazed over as some kind of mawkish sentimentality that is spoken of nominally and yet never truly followed. No, over the years the church and organized religion have been predominantly instruments of oppression, of judgment, and of conflict. I'm not saying this is the point of christianity, or what the bible is trying to teach, but it's the simple nature of what religion does to the masses of society, with a big help from the church of course, which is probably the reason for the utter corruption of most religions.

Although I get what you are saying, I'm not at all sure the world would have been better off without religion. Religion had a unifying quality to it, and it did keep people on the same page with the rights and wrongs stuff. A lot of people would have been even more evil without it, and in MHO most people would have been completely obnoxious without a higher power belief system.

To me, the fact that some of the most evangelical Christians/other religious fanatics can be so intolerant, hateful, judgmental, and cruel, just shows that morality and goodness does NOT come from religion AT ALL.

I think people would be more intolerant and cruel if no religion had ever been created. Religion civilized people faster to my way of thinking. It's just a guess, but seeing how people are with religion, makes me think they'd be far worse without it.

It comes from another source which religious folk have absolutely no sort of monopoly over. Religion can perhaps help clarify and further instill this goodness in already good people, but for the rotten ones all it does is fanaticize them, while giving them seemingly legitimate beefs in the eyes of the masses who still have faith, literally, in these dogmas.

I don't think hardly any of us are inherently good. We need a lot of prodding to be good. If you've had children you know this is why it takes forever to rear humans.

[christianmathew]

it seems to me that life could not go on without religion, but life could go on without homosexuality.

Religion unifies people, and even though some fights have been started over it, humankind would be anarchy without it, if it even existed at all.

There is no such thing as a good person. There is right and wrong, good and bad, helpful and destructive, but everyone has sinned. How can you be a good person if you have sinned?
sinned: lying, stealing, cheating,etc.

[Anmon]

Quote by: Marilyn Monroe I don't think hardly any of us are inherently good. We need a lot of prodding to be good. If you've had children you know this is why it takes forever to rear humans.

No one is born bad, therefore we must have some default, that we can fall back on when we know something is wrong, I believe this is our conscious, and if we don't listen to it, then we are truly evil.

[christianmathew]

wow anmon. that's deep.

I would refer to your "concious" as the Holy Spirit trying to communicate with you.

I would not go as far as to say "truly evil." That is really harsh.
Evil, wrong, etc. but truly evil sounds like there is no hope for someone who doesn't listen to their concious.

[Anmon]

Quote by: christianmathew wow anmon. that's deep. I would refer to your "concious" as the Holy Spirit trying to communicate with you. I would not go as far as to say "truly evil." That is really harsh. Evil, wrong, etc. but truly evil sounds like there is no hope for someone who doesn't listen to their concious.

No I don't believe so, our conscious is developed I believe in the womb, we are nourished and loved by mum in there, and from this we are born with a sense of what feels good and right.
This primitive basic childhood way of determining things as good and bad gets more developed as we grow older, but we always fall back on comfort as good, love as good, so hatred and evil must be bad.
Now evil people I believe are not the stupid who commit hatred against people, thats more a frustration thing from not being accepted, its the clever ones who know the difference between evil and good and choose evil out of a malicious glee, which basically means their evil anyway to have that glee in the first place, so therefore something has gone wrong for them in the womb.
Also on the womb, we relate to the ocean, rocking, the tides etc I believe this is all connected to our first nine months of life in our mothers, to begin with we are so tiny, then small floating around in a giant sea, slowly growing bigger and filling up the womb, the liquid we float around in our own sea, the rocking of her body like the tides of the ocean, so we start to be rocked against her as we grow bigger.
I think its what they mean by the sea of love, we are immersed in it, and from this we get our conscious.

[christianmathew]

That was poetic, but I have to disagree. I simply just can't believe that our conciousness is developed in the "sea of the womb". it doesn't work that way.
I might agree with the frustration about not being accepted thing, but what about people like certain muslim terrorists who struck a certain country a certain day 7 years ago?
Then again, There is no such thing as a truly evil person. Have you ever actually met someone where you thought "wow. That person is truly evil. He must like malicious glee because he almost drowned in his mom's womb."? Everybody either chooses to do good or to do evil, and they can always, change.

We aren't immersed in the sea of love. Trust me. If I was in a sea of love, love would not be nearly as painful as it is. If that is where we get our conciousness, from a sea of pain/love, then we would all be "evil" wouldn't we?

[Anmon]

[christianmathew;495780]That was poetic, but I have to disagree. I simply just can't believe that our conciousness is developed in the "sea of the womb". it doesn't work that way.

Well why not, we develop everything else in there, why not a sense of good and bad as well?

I might agree with the frustration about not being accepted thing, but what about people like certain muslim terrorists who struck a certain country a certain day 7 years ago?

That was your own government, you got done by an inside job, to set up a reason to go to war over in the middle east, so you could get all the oil eventually without paying for it.

Then again, There is no such thing as a truly evil person. Have you ever actually met someone where you thought "wow. That person is truly evil. He must like malicious glee because he almost drowned in his mom's womb."? Everybody either chooses to do good or to do evil, and they can always, change.

I disagree, there are people who love evil, and will do unspeakable things to stay that way.
You cannot change them, they like being evil, they love misery, and they want to go to hell.
Going to heaven would be bad for them, they would throw themselves into hell the first opportunity they got, they want to burn, the only thing they love is Satan.
Trust me on this one, I had a satanic period in my life once, it was short, but revealing, and I still suffer damage from it occasionally.

We aren't immersed in the sea of love. Trust me. If I was in a sea of love, love would not be nearly as painful as it is. If that is where we get our conciousness, from a sea of pain/love, then we would all be "evil" wouldn't we?

We were but in the womb, it was the only safe place we ever had.

[christianmathew]

Anmon, we do not develop everything in the womb. We are constantly growing and changing throughout our lives, which means our sense of right and wrong are constantly changing.

You are also wrong about the government conspiracy. I love conspiracies, and I don't like my government, but they wouldn't kill that many civilians and cause that much damage just to go to war. Our president would do that without a reason anyways, oil or not. Those were terrorists, not conspirators.

You may believe that people love Satan and want to go to hell and burn because they ARE EVIL, but if they do, they just don't understand. Hell is incomprehensible, in a bad way.

Picture a pit of boiling sulfur, lava, ash, brimstone, and fire. picture that this pit is so large that it holds every single person who has ever sinned and not turned to god. picture these people dying cruel deaths a thousand times a day, but since they are already in the afterlife, they don't go anywhere, they just die, and have to go through it again. That's not all.

Picture that this pit, Hades, is being controlled by a third of all the angels in existance, led by the most powerful angel, Lucifer. Not demons, angels. These angels did choose to try to strike down God, and are in hell because of it. Beautiful, awe striking fallen angels, causing all that pain.

Now picture all of that happening for eternity. not a day, a year, a thousand years, but for the rest of time. In fact, time has no meaning. It would never end, this pain. You and I think, well it will get better, it has to end. But it will never end.

Now who would want that?
If you did wand that at some point, were you schizophrenic?

[ShadowFox]

it seems to me that life could not go on without religion, but life could go on without homosexuality. Religion unifies people, and even though some fights have been started over it, humankind would be anarchy without it, if it even existed at all. There is no such thing as a good person. There is right and wrong, good and bad, helpful and destructive, but everyone has sinned. How can you be a good person if you have sinned? sinned: lying, stealing, cheating,etc.

Life can easily exist without religion. Atheists have no real religion (since, if no one teaches you anything about religion, you will have no belief in it, atheism is technically default.) If you refuse to observe this, the next thing would be something like packs of animals, working together to survive.

Also, things seem to be getting a bit off topic.

[christianmathew]

Religion isn't necsesary, but God created life, so religion exists whether you like it or not. Even animals were created by God, so religion will naturally exist and you can't change that.

It does seem a little off topic. I didn't know how to quote at that point, so I seems a little weird. Oh well.

[ShadowFox]

definition of religious

So as you can see, religion itself is not needed. Though i think i understood what you meant. You meant it as even though there is no religion, god will still exist and life will still be something he made, even if not acknowledged as something done by god. Correct me if i'm wrong.

[christianmathew]

I couldn't open your link, but oh well.

you were close enough.

You are saying that religion is not needed. What would life be without religion? Doesn't that essentially kill alll hopes and dreams? What about big questions like how did we get here or what comes after death?

It seems to me that even if religion isn't scientifically/physically needed, it would come about anyways, no matter what, simply because humanity thinks about the purpose of life and things like that.

[Jack]

What would life be without religion? Doesn't that essentially kill alll hopes and dreams?

No. It simply moves them from the realm of the fantastic to the realm of our physical reality. Hopes and dreams are still possible, but they're realistic and conform to the constraints of reality.

What about big questions like how did we get here or what comes after death?

We attempt to seek natural answers to those questions. We don't use the idea of gods to comfort us in our lack of knowledge. We acknowledge our lack of understanding. We are willing to admit there's much about nature and the universe we have yet to understand.

[Tycoon]

Religion isn't necsesary, but God created life, so religion exists whether you like it or not. Even animals were created by God, so religion will naturally exist and you can't change that.

Only in the opinion of religion. Once religion is gone nobody will share your sentiment.

You are saying that religion is not needed. What would life be without religion? Doesn't that essentially kill alll hopes and dreams? What about big questions like how did we get here or what comes after death?

As Isherwood says, hopes and dreams can still exist in a world believing in the physical. How did we come here and what comes after death? We are here because of coincidence, as much as you want a bigger meaning to it. What comes after death? Logic tells us nothing.

It seems to me that even if religion isn't scientifically/physically needed, it would come about anyways, no matter what, simply because humanity thinks about the purpose of life and things like that.

Which is only one of the reasons not to believe in religion. It only wants to provide you an answer, no matter how false.

[christianmathew]

Isherwood and Tycoon,
Unfortunately, I am going to have to strongly disagree with you.

you say "it only moves hopes and dreams from fantastic to reality". But reality doesn't allow hopes and dreams. For example, if there were no religion, what dreams would people have of the afterlife? they would just think that there is nothing after you die, and that certainly wouldn't give them any hope.

We attempt to seek natural answers to those questions. We don't use the idea of gods to comfort us in our lack of knowledge. We acknowledge our lack of understanding. We are willing to admit there's much about nature and the universe we have yet to understand.

In the context of the history of this world, I can't accept what you say. In ancient times, before aethiesm was so dominant, they did not accept that they didn't understand science. Ancient Greeks thought that Gods were the ones who caused earthquakes and storms. Ancient Romans believed in gods and monsters at the edge of the world, beyond the seas. They didn't say "we must not understand science enough." no. they said "we understand, it is gods." Religion will always show up, and people won't just accept answers.

[christianmathew]

tycoon,
you say that no one would "share my sentiment" with religion out of the picture. You see, the problem with your logic is that with religion out of the picture, we wouldn't exist.

Also, you must be really depressed if you believe we are only here out of coincidence and there is nothing after death. Doesn't that mean that your whole existence is the span of a few short decades, and completely meaningless?

Finally,
If religion provides a false answer, then what is the "true" answer? I don't think you understand, there has to be some form of answer, or we wouldn't exist.

[christianmathew]

Btw, the topic of this forum is homosexuality in a christian perspective, not the meaning of life in a christian perspective.

Just reminding you.

[ShadowFox]

you say "it only moves hopes and dreams from fantastic to reality". But reality doesn't allow hopes and dreams. For example, if there were no religion, what dreams would people have of the afterlife? they would just think that there is nothing after you die, and that certainly wouldn't give them any hope.

I disagree with you in some aspects. If people think that once they die, it's over, it will motivate them to try harder in life , to achieve great things and have as good a time as possible. It would be something like visiting a theme park for the first time, and that it's going to close soon, but you only have one day to experience it. You'd try to live that day to the fullest.

tycoon, you say that no one would "share my sentiment" with religion out of the picture. You see, the problem with your logic is that with religion out of the picture, we wouldn't exist. Also, you must be really depressed if you believe we are only here out of coincidence and there is nothing after death. Doesn't that mean that your whole existence is the span of a few short decades, and completely meaningless? Finally, If religion provides a false answer, then what is the "true" answer? I don't think you understand, there has to be some form of answer, or we wouldn't exist.

You say without religion, we would not exist. Again , i think you mean to say with a god, we would not exist. Because, once again, religion is something a person can survive without.

No for the "what's the true answer" thing, we don't know. We have some ideas, but we aren't certain. Yet, to put so much faith in something with no evidence isn't the best choice either.

Now, finishing with that, how do you view homosexuality, Christian?

[christianmathew]

friend halo,
Your theory about being motivated because there is no life after death seems sound, but that would be so depressing in my mind I would be completely unmotivated.

To use your analogy, why would you want to go to a closing theme park at all? why not just not go (suicide)? wouldn't you wonder why the theme park is closing (questioning=religion)?

Again, you are close. How to express? Ah. Without god we wouldn't exist. We believe in god, as our religion. Therefore without our belief in god as our religion, we wouldn't exist (why create something that don't love you?). Does that make sense? If it doesn't just ignore the comment.

It seems that if you don't have an answer for the "true" answer question, you will just have to accept what people believe. Honestly, no matter what you reason or believe, you are still putting so much faith into your beliefs without a lot of proof.
take the big bang for example. Don't you think you are putting a lot of faith in your beliefs when you believe that we came about because a tiny speck of sand (that no one can explain how it existed) blew up and created everything? That would seem to take a lot of faith to believe. Or scientology. We are all descended from an egg an alien dropped into a volcano. When you consider some theories, christianity doesn't seem so absurd.

Now that thats done, I believe that homosexuals are simply sinning and disobeying gods plan. I don't understand why, but they choose to do it. I don't think they should get into heaven because they are choosing to sin by commiting homo acts. It seems to me that they could become good people if they stopped acting homo.

I gotta go. I'll get on later.

[ShadowFox]

For the motivation thing, if it's going to end, why not enjoy it while it lasts? It can't harm you. You might as well live it to the maximum.

As for the homosexual comment. Time and time again, pretty much all homosexuals have said it isn't a choice.