Homosexuality in the View of a Christian

[another day]

OUR book? As in WE are all supporting hate?

No... YOUR book, as in you're all using the bible, albeit interpreted differently.

Plenty of hate and terror can come from the hearts and minds of atheists too. YOUR kind are not free from dirty hands.

I said nothing about atheists. I am not even an atheist actually I would describe myself as a pantheist, but that's beside the point. Whether you are deist or agnostic or atheist, that will not lead to any of this kind of fanatic religious persecution of peoples (though politically and socially it may be different). The danger comes in the subscription to organized and dogmatic scriptural religions, which all have one thing in common - they claim to know God's will, something no Deist will claim.

According to Matthew Jesus said the second most important law is to love our neighbor as yourself. Clearly the bible isn't just all hatred. Hatred comes from people bending words to suit their personal bigotry.

Quite. That's exactly what I said isn't it. Simply put, don't act surprised that religion is interpreted and wielded in this manner. It's the nature of the beast. Over the years this is what religion has been used for above all else. This "peace, love" stuff was never the predominate theme in christianity, despite what Jesus may have said. The "turn the other cheek and love thy neighbor" stuff is apparently glazed over as some kind of mawkish sentimentality that is spoken of nominally and yet never truly followed. No, over the years the church and organized religion have been predominantly instruments of oppression, of judgment, and of conflict. I'm not saying this is the point of christianity, or what the bible is trying to teach, but it's the simple nature of what religion does to the masses of society, with a big help from the church of course, which is probably the reason for the utter corruption of most religions.

To me, the fact that some of the most evangelical Christians/other religious fanatics can be so intolerant, hateful, judgmental, and cruel, just shows that morality and goodness does NOT come from religion AT ALL. It comes from another source which religious folk have absolutely no sort of monopoly over. Religion can perhaps help clarify and further instill this goodness in already good people, but for the rotten ones all it does is fanaticize them, while giving them seemingly legitimate beefs in the eyes of the masses who still have faith, literally, in these dogmas.

[Kizzume]

"Organized" belief does exactly what the name suggests--it's telling people that they all need to believe the same thing. Trying to get everyone to believe the same is just about always going to be a daunting, persecutive task, whether it's done on an individual level or on a huge level by huge organizations.

[KayTwee]

Homosexuality is not specifically listed as a sin in the bible because contrary to popular belief, homosexuality is not considered a sin because it's between two people of the same sex; it's a sin because it isn't within the bounds of marriage. Homosexuality falls under the category of adultery.

The bible clearly states that marriage is a covenant entered into between a man and a woman before God. Because neither two women nor two men can be legally married, biblically speaking, all sexual relations between same sex couples is considered adulterous and therefore sin.

In any regard, if you believe the bible, it is impossible to live a completely sinless life (hence humanity's dependence on a messiah to bridge the gap) and no sin is any worse than any other, except putting yourself in God's place by judging others.. his words, not mine. :)

Anyhow, let's not forget that it wasn't God who created our system of laws today, it's those people who have claimed power in his name and have implemented rules to please themselves and their concerns. I wonder sometimes what Jesus would have to say about all the crap people do in his name.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: another day I said nothing about atheists. I am not even an atheist actually I would describe myself as a pantheist, but that's beside the point. Whether you are deist or agnostic or atheist, that will not lead to any of this kind of fanatic religious persecution of peoples (though politically and socially it may be different). The danger comes in the subscription to organized and dogmatic scriptural religions, which all have one thing in common - they claim to know God's will, something no Deist will claim.

Why is that a danger and why should people feel any remorse over following such an organization. Smoking kills, so do cars, guns, and drugs. Should we all agree they should be banned and not used because they have the potential for harm?

Hitler wrote a book so should that book be banned from reading because it was written by a genocidal maniac?

Quite. That's exactly what I said isn't it. Simply put, don't act surprised that religion is interpreted and wielded in this manner. It's the nature of the beast. Over the years this is what religion has been used for above all else. This "peace, love" stuff was never the predominate theme in christianity, despite what Jesus may have said. The "turn the other cheek and love thy neighbor" stuff is apparently glazed over as some kind of mawkish sentimentality that is spoken of nominally and yet never truly followed. No, over the years the church and organized religion have been predominantly instruments of oppression, of judgment, and of conflict. I'm not saying this is the point of christianity, or what the bible is trying to teach, but it's the simple nature of what religion does to the masses of society, with a big help from the church of course, which is probably the reason for the utter corruption of most religions. To me, the fact that some of the most evangelical Christians/other religious fanatics can be so intolerant, hateful, judgmental, and cruel, just shows that morality and goodness does NOT come from religion AT ALL. It comes from another source which religious folk have absolutely no sort of monopoly over. Religion can perhaps help clarify and further instill this goodness in already good people, but for the rotten ones all it does is fanaticize them, while giving them seemingly legitimate beefs in the eyes of the masses who still have faith, literally, in these dogmas.

Peace and love were always the message. Look to the oldest stories. Leading the slaves out of Egypt was a peaceful revolution against authority, not a violent uprising against cruel masters.

Other stories deal with defeating foes which of course is only natural given the ancient state of warring mini city states.

Taking into account the story of Jesus, did Jesus promote violence and uprising against Roman authority? Did he stop a stoning of an women or allow it? No, he stopped the violence and gave the famous throw the first stone speech.

I'm sorry, your idea of the bible being an instrument of hate fails. The ultimate words come from Jesus, which in effect seals a new covenant with humanity, where love and respect of your neighbor is the only rule and code.

[lindsay7]

Quote by: HelioPrime Why is that a danger and why should people feel any remorse over following such an organization. Smoking kills, so do cars, guns, and drugs. Should we all agree they should be banned and not used because they have the potential for harm? Hitler wrote a book so should that book be banned from reading because it was written by a genocidal maniac? Peace and love were always the message. Look to the oldest stories. Leading the slaves out of Egypt was a peaceful revolution against authority, not a violent uprising against cruel masters. Other stories deal with defeating foes which of course is only natural given the ancient state of warring mini city states. Taking into account the story of Jesus, did Jesus promote violence and uprising against Roman authority? Did he stop a stoning of an women or allow it? No, he stopped the violence and gave the famous throw the first stone speech. I'm sorry, your idea of the bible being an instrument of hate fails. The ultimate words come from Jesus, which in effect seals a new covenant with humanity, where love and respect of your neighbor is the only rule and code.

Well said

[KayTwee]

Quote by: HelioPrime Hitler wrote a book so should that book be banned from reading because it was written by a genocidal maniac?

Actually, that book is banned from being sold in quite a few nations in Europe and elsewhere around the globe.. you can go see them in a library, but you're not allowed to check them out and they aren't available for purchase by the general public.

[Jimmy the Pro]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer People that remarry are destined for Hell in the Bible.. it's just as much as a sin as homosexuality. Yet remarried couples are gladly welcomed into churches. Why?

Which is why I don't agree with those who do not accept gay people, the logic does not follow for me.

[another day]

Quote by: HelioPrime Why is that a danger and why should people feel any remorse over following such an organization. Smoking kills, so do cars, guns, and drugs. Should we all agree they should be banned and not used because they have the potential for harm? Hitler wrote a book so should that book be banned from reading because it was written by a genocidal maniac?

Incredible Strawman. I said nothing whatsoever about banning organized religion.

I'm sorry, your idea of the bible being an instrument of hate fails. The ultimate words come from Jesus, which in effect seals a new covenant with humanity, where love and respect of your neighbor is the only rule and code.

You still don't understand. Let me quote from my last post because I already explained all this.

"I'm not saying this is the point of christianity (hatred), or what the bible is trying to teach, but it's the simple nature of what religion does to the masses of society"

You say his words "seal a new covenent with humanity, where love and respect of your neighbor is the only rule and code"... What I'm saying is that's not how it's played out is it? Are Christians known to be peaceful and loving and accepting people, more so then other groups? No... What your talking about is the IDEAL, not the REALITY. It's like a Muslim saying Islam is a religion of peace. In ideal, it may be, but in reality it's caused an extreme amout of warfare, conflict, bigotry, and hatred.

So let me emphasize this once more so you get it this time - I am talking about the EFFECTS of religion on the masses, not the IDEAL of how religion should be followed.

You say my point of the bible as an instrument for hatred fails? How so? The bible has been consistantly used by churches and individuals alike over the years to promote hatred. That alone makes it an INSTRUMENT (ie, a device with aids in) hatred. Once again this does not mean the true message of the bible is to hate everyone. A hunting gun company would not say their guns are designed to be instruments for murdering people, but that doesn't change the fact that people can use them for that purpose.

[KayTwee]

Quote by: another day "I'm not saying this is the point of christianity (hatred), or what the bible is trying to teach, but it's the simple nature of what religion does to the masses of society"

So true. When men begin to lead large groups of people by their faith, trouble soon follows..

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: KayTwee So true. When men begin to lead large groups of people by their faith, trouble soon follows..

That's a human trait. It happens. Look to the Soviet Union for a wonderful example of human suffering and poor governance all done in the name of keeping a secular state.

[Halofan48]

Faith has a large part in it.

I can name a few horrible things right off the back involving faith:

Crusades
Spanish Inquisition
etc.

You can find a lot based mainly on religion.

[HelioPrime]

Once again human actions and minds at work.

Human's have free will and choose how to treat others. Saying the bible is responsible as a misinterpreted book is just like saying Tom Clancy is responsible for 9/11 because he wrote a book about crashing an airliner into a Washington building.

[Halofan48]

No, we aren't saying the book is responsible. We are saying that people are using the book as an excuse to do these things.

[HelioPrime]

That's true then. It's bad that people use faith as a tool but it doesn't stain other christians or other religions at all.

[KayTwee]

Quote by: HelioPrime That's a human trait. It happens. Look to the Soviet Union for a wonderful example of human suffering and poor governance all done in the name of keeping a secular state.

Very true.. Stalin definitely isn't on the short list of greatest humanitarians of all time. That being said, wars fought in the name of religion are fought with much greater fury than secular wars ever manage to raise.

The fact is, if any single (or group of) arab nations could ever manage to gain the force of Nazi Germany, there would be no retreat or capitulation.. they would throw themselves into the gears of war until the Israeli state in Judaea was extinct, or they themselves were.

[Court463]

Just out of curiosity what is the name of that book that hitler wrote, might be intresting to see his personal perspective on things.

And I guess i don't have much to argue hear the last 5 post were like all in agreement with what I agree with, so well said guys.

[HelioPrime]

Mein Kauf unless I'm spelling it wrong.

Spellcheck doesn't recognize it as a word. Must be the christian nationalist and their influence

[KayTwee]

Quote by: HelioPrime Mein Kauf unless I'm spelling it wrong. Spellcheck doesn't recognize it as a word. Must be the christian nationalist and their influence

LOL It's Mein Kampf

You can probably find most of it online somewhere, I've never bothered looking.

[Shayalon]

Helioprime said "OUR book?

As in WE are all supporting hate?"

Oh yeah. Boy are you ever supporting hate.

Pat Robertson, the late Jerry Fallwell, Fred Phelps, etc. Ad nauseum...

They all preach hatred of homosexuals, and don't tell me that they preach hate the sin...Gays caused 911, gays caused Katrina, gays cause the deaths of US soldiers...what kinds of reactions are these accusations supposed to create?

I have been to many gay pride parades, in Idaho, US. No buttless chaps...no naked people. And at every one of these parades there are representatives of YOUR religion, using YOUR book to promote hatred of homosexuals in the name of YOUR God.

Does that mean that I think all Christians promote hatred. No. I think that most Christians follow the teachings of Christ. Turn the other cheek, love thy neighbor, let he who is without sin cast the first stone...

Yet they also support hate. They support hate by ignoring the hatemongers. They allow Robertson, Fallwell, and Phelps to represent them, unopposed. They allow the picketers with the "God hates fags" and "AIDS kills fags dead" signs to stand unopposed at gay rallies.

Don't act like innocent bystanders here, you are just as responsible for the violence against gay people, the suicides of gay teens, etc. than are those who preach on their TV shows and hold the signs to create the atmosphere in which such violence thrives. You are responsible by your inaction.

Personally, I have to struggle every day with a feeling of hatred for Christians. I see only these representatives of your religion, because they are the loud ones, and I begin to think that they hold sway over your group. But most Christians I meet are kind people. People who do not hate, people who accept and love as Christ instructed. But do nothing to prevent the hatred being preached in their name. So my hatred fades to contempt...and occasional understanding...until I turn the TV back on...

[wyoguy]

Shayalon, I think your point is valid and my conscience is convicted. How would you recommend that I express the dangerous eternal and temporal consequences of pursuing this lifestyle? I have never been to a gay pride parade or equated any contemporary calamity with homosexuality. While I don't condone the actions of the quazi-religious zealots that perpetrate these types of hate-mongering, I likewise don't condone an openly homosexual media/Hollywood portraying themselves as anything but sexual deviants.