A Challenge to God

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Kamehameha34 We're not talking about an emperor. We're talking about an omnipotent god. This argument that it would "be too hard" simply does not apply. There are no restrictions on an omnipotent god.

It's not saying that it would be too hard. It's saying that happiness is an individual matter. That is what comes with freedom. People are intelligent and they think for themselves. Neither the emperor nor God would force them to be happy. Being unhappy is a right. And being discomfited is how we learn. Or would you have us remain spoiled babies?

[Kamehameha34]

But you are begging the dictator then.

So?

No, it doesn't. It states that people aren't.

Because of a flaw in our design, and therefore our designer.

You haven't really proven that. We haven't even found acceptable terms for each tri-facet. Don't get ahead of yourself.

You're missing the point of benevolence. A benevolent person wouldn't say "Well since person X's happiness makes persons Y and Z sad, I think person X should be sad", he would say "I wish person X Y and Z could be happy."

If a god is omnipotent, there's absolutely no obstacle preventing him from making all three people happy. Every conditional you could dream up no longer applies. Therefore, your "not everyone can be happy at the same time" argument no longer applies.

He didn't.

He either wanted them sewn or he didn't. If he didn't want them sewn, they wouldn't have been. (See: omnipotence) If he wanted them sewn, that is as effective as sewing them himself, even if he didn't. (See: omniscience)

I use movie quotes because it is an example and it helps people see things in another way. If I was quoting a book, would you still object?

Yes, I would object.

Your quote is theatrical. I have absolutely no reason to take it seriously.

[Kamehameha34]

Quote by: phoenix_fire It's not saying that it would be too hard. It's saying that happiness is an individual matter. That is what comes with freedom. People are intelligent and they think for themselves. Neither the emperor nor God would force them to be happy. Being unhappy is a right. And being discomfited is how we learn. Or would you have us remain spoiled babies?

What's the difference? The reason why we learn is so we can make ourselves happy further down the road.

Happiness is an individual matter because there is no omnipotent, omnibenevolent god zapping good-feelings into us. If unhappiness is a right, why not just zap the feelings into those that opt in to the jubilance? Why would your god make people that want to be unhappy?

Your theory comes apart at the seams for every patch you sew onto it.


What about people who are unhappy but want to be happy? (As if that narrows down the list..) Are you telling me that unhappiness is a right whereas happiness isn't?

[pikatore]

Quote by: phoenix_fire I think, actually, that South Park does a pretty good job in showing that dogmatism is in the very nature of people in the episode where atheism takes over the future (and they still fight over what the "real truth" is).

I think that ANYTHING can be taken to an extreme. But don't talk about militant atheists to try and discredit people like me, because I might as well talk about Christians that take a bus hostage and shoot everyone, then shoot themselves, because 'god told me to'. It brings nothing to the debate.

I watched that South Park episode a while ago, and it's satire isn't particularly deep. Not to mention that this 'real truth', 'science vs. science' scenario backfires on itself for being completely ridiculous, and the total lack of a profound message. Try not to mention stuff like that, because it's a useless aside that doesn't add to anyone's argument.

Quote by: phoenix_fire Frankly, I believe in the possibility of aliens. I have seen no evidence to prove that they exist, so I can't say for sure that they do. Statistically, there's a small likelihood that there could be life similar to that which thrives in our ecosystem on other planets. After you X the vast majority of planets that would be made uninhabitable by different spatial environmental factors. But I certainly won't discount the possibility outright.

Neither would I, but the existence of life somewhere else in the universe is a physically and logically feasible occurence!

Notice how you said 'statistically x, and y, but z' (also known as logical thought) instead of 'some really old book said so, and a lot of people believe it' to back up your point, and notice how it actually put some kind of substantial weight behind it. Until you can do that for a god, don't bother trying to convince anyone otherwise.

Why try equating belief in the possibliity of life elsewhere that with the belief in an invisible being? Don't you see how those two things differ remarkably?

Using your reasoning, we shouldn't discount the existence of freaking unicorns in Delta Prime of the fifth dimension, who apparently are the cause of comets, because that's actually thier poop, which being unstable in thier dimension, materialises into ours.

Neither should we discount the possibility of Santa Claus. Hey, enough kids believe it to make it a religion, right?

Quote by: phoenix_fire On the other hand, theists do have evidence for what they believe. You just don't accept their evidence. That's your business, but at least you could do objectivity the justice of acknowledging that that belief is not baseless.

ROFL. If you call bronze age text evidence, then you are being dishonest to yourself as well as I. On the other hand, if you are talking of 'spiritual' evidence, we'd better open up the nuthouses to the public, as there are enough self-proclaimed prophets and psychics to found thier own country.

[Piscean]

I challenged God to reveil Gods existance to me and I really meant it. I wasnt trying to prove anyone else wrong I was really asking God to be revealed to me. What happened was beyond amazing and my source was revealed to me in ways that only I would see and understand. If you really want to know God. Disregard everything you've ever heard or read and seek honestly from your heart. If it is given to you to be able to do this you will be amazed what you find!

[ItsDarts]

Quote by: Piscean I challenged God to reveil Gods existance to me and I really meant it. I wasnt trying to prove anyone else wrong I was really asking God to be revealed to me. What happened was beyond amazing and my source was revealed to me in ways that only I would see and understand. If you really want to know God. Disregard everything you've ever heard or read and seek honestly from your heart. If it is given to you to be able to do this you will be amazed what you find!

Anecdotal evidence is not evidence with any validity. If a Hindu said the exact same thing to you, would you believe that Vishnu revealed itself to the Hindu? When a Muslim asks Allah to reveal himself, doesn't this mean that its not Jesus doing the revealing but only God? Why should we accept your cute story of revelation over anyone elses? Could it be possible that you believe its YOUR god because you've been raised in a culture that believes in your god? Please reconcile these other situations before naturally assuming it was your god. Is it possible that you only "equated" your experience to your god, the same way a Hindu equates his experience to Vishnu?

[gela]

I think this douglas adams quote from Hitchikers guide to the galaxy sums up the problem nicely:

Now it is such a bizarrely impossible coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the nonexistence of God. The arguement goes something like this:


"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

"But," say Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't though of that" and promply vanishes in a puff of logic.

--THGTG

[Piscean]

""""Anecdotal evidence is not evidence with any validity. If a Hindu said the exact same thing to you, would you believe that Vishnu revealed itself to the Hindu? When a Muslim asks Allah to reveal himself, doesn't this mean that its not Jesus doing the revealing but only God? Why should we accept your cute story of revelation over anyone else's? Could it be possible that you believe its YOUR god because you've been raised in a culture that believes in your god? Please reconcile these other situations before naturally assuming it was your god. Is it possible that you only "equated" your experience to your god, the same way a Hindu equates his experience to Vishnu?"""


Now that you've passed all your judgements on me let me explain a few things to you

First off if u quit assuming and actually read my post you'll See that i said nothing about what particular god it's supposed to be. What i said was to forget everything you've ever read or heard about the subject and ask God (your source or whatever you want to call it) to be revealed to you from your heart And yes if a Hindu or whoever else told me about a sincere encounter with God I'd believe them, even if i didn't believe in all the man made b.s. that comes with their religion just like all religions!

From the way you responded to me it is now obvious that you are unwilling to consider knowing God whoever that may be so I promise you, you won't don't worry!! The anger or hurt in your heart is your real issue and even though you'll never admit it deep inside you, you are angry at whoever or whatever you perceive God to be. You didn't understand a thing I said last time and I don't expect any different this time but since your my fellow human being I give you this sincere response anyway.

You insult me with the whole don't you think its YOUR god because of the culture you were raised in etc. but if you knew me you'd realize i reject every custom and tradition of man from every culture because it's all sheepism! There is one source for us all and if you don't find your connection it's your infinite loss, I'm sad to hear that you can only believe in things measured by microscopes etc. in other words the things in front of your nose. It only means in your spirit you aren't ready for anything better at this time. You can't understand any of these things because they are spiritual and beyond your grasp and i can't give you a math equation or molecular formula to prove God because those are infinitely small details of an immeasurably bigger picture. If I could help you I would because your missing out on something better than anything you have but i can't so I'm sorry you'll have to be left how you are for now even though I know you aren't regretting anything since you don't know why you should.

[ItsDarts]

Quote by: Piscean Now that you've passed all your judgements on me let me explain a few things to you. First off if u quit assuming and actually read my post you'll See that i said nothing about what particular god it's supposed to be.

And this is your first mistake, this thread is about the Abrahamic God. If you read the Original post (OP) you'll see..... "

Quote by: OP According to your scripture, only believers in you, and Jesus/Mohammed's apparently supernatural abilities, will go to heaven, and all who reject conversion or worship another god (false idol) will go to hell (or purgatory, depending on your particulars).

See? So in a sense you were right, I made the assumption we were both talking about the god of the original post, my bad.

What i said was to forget everything you've ever read or heard about the subject and ask God (your source or whatever you want to call it) to be revealed to you from your heart And yes if a Hindu or whoever else told me about a sincere encounter with God I'd believe them, even if i didn't believe in all the man made b.s. that comes with their religion just like all religions!

Again from the original post...

Hey God, it seems to me a few things are for sure: - You exist only to those who 'believe' in you, therefore those who are willing to take an intellectual leap of faith, without having any or little regard for a rational, logical, objective take on their opinions.

This applies to the statement you made about you "asking god to be revealed".... you are asking what? Can you point to it? No, therefore you must take it on a leap of faith.

From the way you responded to me it is now obvious that you are unwilling to consider knowing God whoever that may be so I promise you, you won't don't worry!!

I responded in a normal "debating fashion" which I thought this forum was about. If its just a casual conversation thread, it would be in the General Discussions Forum. Sorry that you misunderstood my response.

The anger or hurt in your heart is your real issue and even though you'll never admit it deep inside you, you are angry at whoever or whatever you perceive God to be.

There are a couple of false assumptions here... 1.) I don't have anger or hurt "in my heart". My heart is a autotomic muscle, it has no emotion, ever. 2.) you assume (wrongly) that I perceive any god, I don't, there is no evidence that anyone can point too for a god without resorting to words in a book or plain thoughts from your own mind.

You didn't understand a thing I said last time and I don't expect any different this time but since your my fellow human being I give you this sincere response anyway.

Uhhh thanks, I think. However, I do find it arrogant of you to assume I don't understand a thing you said. I admitted it wasn't clear that we weren't speaking of the Abrahamic God even though that IS the topic of this thread. You throw out some conceived god from your own mind and its off topic.

You insult me with the whole don't you think its YOUR god because of the culture you were raised in etc. but if you knew me you'd realize i reject every custom and tradition of man from every culture because it's all sheepism!

You shouldn't feel insulted considering I THOUGHT we were talking about the god of the OP.

There is one source for us all and if you don't find your connection it's your infinite loss, I'm sad to hear that you can only believe in things measured by microscopes etc. in other words the things in front of your nose.

You are NOT sad for me, stop lying. As for believing in materialism, its the only thing we can be certain of, there is nothing wrong with my position.

It only means in your spirit you aren't ready for anything better at this time.

What do you mean by spirit? I don't want to assume anything here, please explain what spirit is to you.

You can't understand any of these things because they are spiritual and beyond your grasp and i can't give you a math equation or molecular formula to prove God because those are infinitely small details of an immeasurably bigger picture.

So is the Invisable Pink Unicorn, but I'm sure you couldn't understand that, its beyond you.... there, hows that feel?

If I could help you I would because your missing out on something better than anything you have but i can't so I'm sorry you'll have to be left how you are for now even though I know you aren't regretting anything since you don't know why you should.

Then please start a new thread, defining your god and the details on how you got to know him/her/it. BTW, can't you just pray to your god and ask it to help me? Thats what christians do!

[Piscean]

You are NOT sad for me, stop lying. As for believing in materialism, its the only thing we can be certain of, there is nothing wrong with my position


I respect your debating abilities as they may be better than mine but this is not a lie i really mean it.

Ok yes your literal heart has no pain in it sorry i was being figurative and not scientific.

You don't believe in anything more than being matter and chemical reactions so spirit means nothing to you. I might do my best to say i think the spirit is the life force giving power to your cells but i can't prove that so it won't matter to you.

Some people are awake spiritually and some arent. If your not, it's like im trying to describe the color of the sky to someone who never had sight, how can i make you see it, i can't.

Sorry i misunderstood that we were talking about a specific god. I just dont believe in such things. Challenging the god of abraham or whatever makes no more sence to me that challenging the god of anything else. I thought you actually wanted God to be revealed to you, but you just want to use science and debate to prove some christians wrong or something so have fun;-)

[ItsDarts]

Quote by: Piscean .... You don't believe in anything more than being matter and chemical reactions so spirit means nothing to you. I might do my best to say i think the spirit is the life force giving power to your cells but i can't prove that so it won't matter to you.

"Life Force" powering my cells are something we can measure. Its called electrochemical reactions. If that is spirit, then big deal. We all have the ability to "imagine" lots of things. One of the things humans like to imagine is life after death. Why don't they imagine "life before birth"? Why are there no memories of life before birth? Oh wait, Shirley McClain claims she had many lives before this one, so is her position any more OR less tenable? Why?

Some people are awake spiritually and some arent. If your not, it's like im trying to describe the color of the sky to someone who never had sight, how can i make you see it, i can't.

You can describe the sky, explain what it is, take them up in a hot air ballon and let them touch it and experience the difference of being up there or down here. Why can't you describe your god? Is it because he only contacts some of us? What made you so lucky? Why must we seek him? I'm capable of imagining all kinds of things, it doesn't mean I think they exist. Someone imagined Unicorns, even drew pictures of them, but I still lack belief in their existence, why should I give special consideration to imagined gods? If god is nothing more than Nature itself, why not just call it nature? Before we can discuss god(s) you need to define him for me so we can be on the same page. If you can't define him, there is no logical reason to assume one exists. Any "feeling" you have about him could very possibly be nothing more than an over active imagination.

Sorry i misunderstood that we were talking about a specific god. I just dont believe in such things. Challenging the god of abraham or whatever makes no more sence to me that challenging the god of anything else. I thought you actually wanted God to be revealed to you, but you just want to use science and debate to prove some christians wrong or something so have fun;-)

I'm non-discriminate towards all gods, I lack belief in them all and am willing to debate any god you can define.

[Jack]

Disregard everything you've ever heard or read and seek honestly from your heart.

Any deity that demands ignorance as a prerequisite for belief isn't worth the bother. That's a belief that is afraid of critical examination.

[Piscean]

Any deity that demands ignorance as a prerequisite for belief isn't worth the bother. That's a belief that is afraid of critical examination.

I was talking about the things you've heard about God from people, the things that made you so jaded in the first place. Not everything you ever learned about anything c'mon.

[Piscean]

You can describe the sky, explain what it is, take them up in a hot air balloon and let them touch it and experience the difference of being up there or down here. Why can't you describe your god? Is it because he only contacts some of us? What made you so lucky? Why must we seek him? I'm capable of imagining all kinds of things, it doesn't mean I think they exist. Someone imagined Unicorns, even drew pictures of them, but I still lack belief in their existence, why should I give special consideration to imagined gods? If god is nothing more than Nature itself, why not just call it nature? Before we can discuss god(s) you need to define him for me so we can be on the same page. If you can't define him, there is no logical reason to assume one exists. Any "feeling" you have about him could very possibly be nothing more than an over active imagination.

How egotistically maniacal would I have to be to think I could define the source of everything. Something infinitely greater than you and I can't be defined by man. That's also why your science will never find God, it'll only uncover little details of God's design.

Why should you seek God? Gee I guess you shouldn't since your mind was make up before you wrote in this thread. I sought God because I wanted to know something greater than myself. You on the other hand probably don't think there is anything greater than man (sad) and that can't be proved to you on your terms either so this whole debate is pointless.

Your don't want to know God and why should something so infinitely better than you be revealed to you with the attitude you have, don't worry, it wont. Your right about cells but you don't see an underlying energy source making every chemical reaction happen, or exist in the first place, so it's just not there for you and you want it that way. I'm done debating with you because there really is nothing to debate. Mans petty attempt to understand life (known as science) knows nothing compared to what there is to be known and never really will, but if that's what you wanna put your faith in, you have every right to, enjoy;-)

[ItsDarts]

Quote by: Piscean How egotistically maniacal would I have to be to think I could define the source of everything.

Well for starters, you can tell us how you know this god is the source of everything. Saying that tells me you have some knowledge of this god, where did you get this knowledge?

Something infinitely greater than you and I can't be defined by man.

If thats the case, how do you know its infinately greater than us and how do you know it can't be defined? So far you've described a "source of everything" and its "infinitely greater".

That's also why your science will never find God, it'll only uncover little details of God's design.

Science doesn't really try to find god, it explains things we are trying to understand. What I don't understand is how you have this special knowledge of a god you can't point too, yet you (apparently only you) happen to know we can't define him, yet you've described various parts of his nature like Infinitely Greater and "Source of everything" and now he is a designer as well. Quite interesting for a god we can't define, yet you seem to be doing just that. How are you receiving this knowledge?

Why should you seek God? Gee I guess you shouldn't since your mind was make up before you wrote in this thread.

I did seek god and atheism is what I found. There isn't any evidence. Just because we haven't discovered how our universe came into existence (yet?) prior to the Big Bang, doesn't suggest it is the works of a god, it suggests we just don't have the technology (yet) or the mental capacity (yet) to find the natural causes. My "faith" in science is backed up by past discoveries that explain our reality where a god use to explain our reality. God keeps getting shoved into a smaller and smaller corner with each new discovery. Just last week, Nasa announced is has discovered "organic material" on Saturns moon, Titan. While this isn't life, its a component of it and its only 3 billion miles away. We're still trying to figure out how the 4 natural forces of Strong and Weak nuclear force, Electromagnetic force and gravity work together to hold our universe together.

I sought God because I wanted to know something greater than myself.

Could you at least explain to me how you seek something that you claim is infinitely greater yet can't be defined? Seems like a contradiction in terms to me.

You on the other hand probably don't think there is anything greater than man (sad) and that can't be proved to you on your terms either so this whole debate is pointless.

What I find pointless is your inaccurate assumptions about me. I know there are many greater things than man, nature being one of them. If Nature is your god, then we may have a lot in common, its just that I don't see a need to call it god just to sound "spiritual" or religious to the people around me.

You don't want to know God and why should something so infinitely better than you be revealed to you with the attitude you have, don't worry, it wont.

You sure do know a lot about a god we can't define, again I ask, how are you receiving this knowledge? How do you "know" he's greater than us? How do you "know" he won't reveal himself to me? How do you KNOW he's refusing to reveal himself to me because of my attitude? Is he cranky like that? HOW DO YOU KNOW THESE THINGS, yet you can't define him?

Mans petty attempt to understand life (known as science) knows nothing compared to what there is to be known and never really will, but if that's what you wanna put your faith in, you have every right to, enjoy;-)

How do you know all this? How can you call science a "petty attempt" to understand reality? We do agree there is much to learn and that you and I will probably never know all there is to know within our lifetime just like our great grand parents may have never known that man could reach the moon or early cave dwellers never even conceived of computers. Does this mean we should just stop looking for answers and just say "god did it"?

The point to all this is to say that if you can't define god, then how can we debate god? Why should I take your word for it that he exists without a definition? Its illogical. To say that I simply don't understand reaks of arrogance that somehow you do understand and that you have been given special knowledge that can only be understood if you wish for it to be true. Sorry, my brain isn't wired that way and you can blame your "source of everything, infinitely greater designer that can't be defined" for my lack of belief.

[Piscean]

There will never be a scientific way to prove God or to prove God isn't real. Despite what you say science isn't shoving God in a smaller corner, that's rediculous. Sciece may shove the worlds religions in a small corner and beat them into submission, and force them to admit theyre nothing eventually but that has nothing to do with God. God reveals God to whome God chooses for reasons beyond anyone. Many who think they know God simply don't. But those who do will never lose God. It'd be like convincing me my family wasn't real. It'll never happen. But there will never be a way for me to prove Gods existance scientifically and that's for a reason.

Do u really think science knows 1% of !% of what there is to know. To believe so would be rediculous. And even if man and science are around for an uncountable amount of years and they discover millions of times more information than what's known now, they'll never find God with science. Despite what you think science can't measure some things. Reason and logic are one of the many catagories of the human mind yet in our society it's valued as if it's the answer to life itself. That seems so narrow minded to me but I'm straying off topic now. Anyway like I say these debates can go on forever but it'll just be debate practice because neither side can ever proove what they want to.

[Jack]

But those who do will never lose God.

Presumptuous and incorrect. I once believed as much as anyone I know. I was absolutely convinced that god existed and that I knew him on a personal basis. I wanted to believe and did.
But I did what theists are discouraged from doing. I kept seeking, and eventually found that theism was just a matter of wish-fulfillment. Believers create the gods. I discovered that the gods are an incomplete and nonsensical answer to the questions I had. I outgrew religion, god, and all the rest that constitutes fantastic imaginings.
The harm being done to the people of this planet in the name of various gods requires nonbelievers to be vocal in stating the obvious and real. Eventually the day will come when superstition no longer holds sway over the Earth's population. Nonbelievers are evidence that life does not require imaginary entities to be full and worthwhile.

neither side can ever proove what they want to.

Atheists aren't out to prove anything, we simply point out the obvious: no theist has ever presented irrefutable evidence to support the notion that gods exist. If any believer in any god can do so, bring it on. Otherwise, accept that belief in gods is a personal matter that shouldn't be imposed on others that don't share those views.

[ItsDarts]

Quote by: Isherwood .... Atheists aren't out to prove anything, we simply point out the obvious: no theist has ever presented irrefutable evidence to support the notion that gods exist. If any believer in any god can do so, bring it on. Otherwise, accept that belief in gods is a personal matter that shouldn't be imposed on others that don't share those views.

I couldn't have said it any better. Absense of evidence may not be evidence of absense, but it sure is telling.

[Piscean]

Presumptuous and incorrect. I once believed as much as anyone I know. I was absolutely convinced that god existed and that I knew him on a personal basis. I wanted to believe and did. But I did what theists are discouraged from doing. I kept seeking, and eventually found that theism was just a matter of wish-fulfillment. Believers create the gods. I discovered that the gods are an incomplete and nonsensical answer to the questions I had. I outgrew religion, god, and all the rest that constitutes fantastic imaginings. The harm being done to the people of this planet in the name of various gods requires nonbelievers to be vocal in stating the obvious and real. Eventually the day will come when superstition no longer holds sway over the Earth's population. Nonbelievers are evidence that life does not require imaginary entities to be full and worthwhile.

I said those who really know God and I also said most who think they do don't. Don't worry I know you don't believe me. I agree that fighting the evils done in the name of gods is good work, I'm with you there. But no harm comes to anyone through a real relationship with ones source, only religion does the damage.