Free Will Poll

[MplsBison]

Quote by: Aerika I tend to lean towards determinism which suggests that every decision or action is pre-determined by our past and existing causes.

As I was telling Tycoon, the doublt slit experiment proves that our actions are not pre determined.

[Aerika]

Quote by: MplsBison As I was telling Tycoon, the doublt slit experiment proves that our actions are not pre determined.

You cannot prove or disprove the existence of free-will anymore than you can prove or disprove the existence of a god. It's a philosophy debate.

[MplsBison]

You can prove that the future is not determined.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Merge I'm not sure what this is in response to. Is it a response to WakeTFU's post?

It was a response to the Opening Post Poll. Only believers or atheits or agnostic people could vote. And so my question is, what does that have to do with using free will to pick what color socks I will wear when I get dressed in the morning?

Should I pray to ask God what color socks to wear and then do His Will?

What has religion got to do with free will?

Christians cannot use free will to become perfect Christians, they will always be short of the mark, if they do not lie about it, the Book said so. If you cannot use free will to become perfectly sin free then that does not say much for god-given will power to do as we please.

Every week they got some sin to repent of, some confession that should be made, it seems no one can use free will to live perfectly by the book and by all the religious outlines for proper behavior and proper thinking.

[Aerika]

Quote by: MplsBison You can prove that the future is not determined.

The Bohm interpretation of QM contrast with the Double slit experiment. Im certainly not qualified to debate QM but there are numerous contrasting interpretations of QM regarding determinism. Your premise on free will is seemingly based on which QM interpretation should be used and I'm not convinced our knowledge of QM proves or disproves determinism


Bohm interpretation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Indeterminism and the Bohm Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics | Peter Ericson

[Merge]

Quote by: WakeTFU First off, is randomness a coherent concept?

yes.

Quote by: WakeTFU Quick aside: is the universe infinite or finite? The answer is: move on, neither answer affects daily life.

If you want that to be the answer, fine.

Quote by: WakeTFU I'd give the same answer to the question of free will.

And I'd say you are wrong. It has effected my life directly.

Quote by: WakeTFU Also, you claim your arguement isn't based on god, but suppose you don't have free will (which, by asking the question you admit it's a possibility) then who or what is controlling you? Your big toe? Remember, god is really just a word used to explain things we don't fully understand.

No, I think "god" is a word used to refer to higher powers or beings.

Also, an argument's implications aren't what it is based on.

What is controlling me? I wouldn't say my big toe, I have no evidence of that, though if you want I'll admit it's a possibility. Possibly chains of physical events that originated before I was born control me. Possibly God controls me.


I'm not trying to be rude, but unless you start responding with arguments to my posts, I'll probably ignore what you're saying. This isn't a threat or an insult, just a heads up. I'd like to discuss arguments about free will, not arguments about arguments or arguments about asking questions. Sorry if this offends you.

[Merge]

Quote by: Aerika You cannot prove or disprove the existence of free-will anymore than you can prove or disprove the existence of a god.

I completely agree. We can prove or disprove the existence of a god if it is logically possible to do so, therefore it’s possible that we can prove or disprove the existence of free will just as much.

Quote by: Aerika It's a philosophy debate.

It is a philosophy debate, but that doesn't mean we can't come to any logical conclusions about free will. Maybe what you meant is that it's a matter of opinion?

[Merge]

Quote by: Technosoul It was a response to the Opening Post Poll. Only believers or atheits or agnostic people could vote. And so my question is, what does that have to do with using free will to pick what color socks I will wear when I get dressed in the morning? Should I pray to ask God what color socks to wear and then do His Will? What has religion got to do with free will?

I think it's true that the free will debate doesn't really have anything to do with what religion people do (or don't) follow.

I would assume the poll was just a matter of curiosity, too see how many people there were for each belief combination.

[Aerika]

Quote by: Merge It is a philosophy debate, but that doesn't mean we can't come to any logical conclusions about free will. Maybe what you meant is that it's a matter of opinion?

Coming to a conclusion is a far cry from proof. But yeah, I agree to a degree but keep in mind, many debaters are so busy trying to prove their point that they lose any objectivity. I'm certainly guilty of that at times.

[MplsBison]

Quote by: Aerika The Bohm interpretation of QM contrast with the Double slit experiment.

Hidden variable theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



You can always convince yourself that some hypothesis is true if you simply assume a lack of ability to obtain the information that would prove your hypothesis true.


It's a cop out.

[Merge]

Quote by: MplsBison You can always convince yourself that some hypothesis is true if you simply assume a lack of ability to obtain the information that would prove your hypothesis true. It's a cop out.

I completely agree with you here. But isn't assuming you have the ability to observe everything there is to observe a mistake as well? Aren't we left with no definite answer as far as determinism is concerned?

[Aerika]

Quote by: MplsBison Hidden variable theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia You can always convince yourself that some hypothesis is true if you simply assume a lack of ability to obtain the information that would prove your hypothesis true. It's a cop out.

And exactly which hypothesis of mine have I posted?

[WakeTFU]

Quote by: Merge What is controlling me? I wouldn't say my big toe, I have no evidence of that, though if you want I'll admit it's a possibility. Possibly chains of physical events that originated before I was born control me. Possibly God controls me. I'm not trying to be rude, but unless you start responding with arguments to my posts, I'll probably ignore what you're saying. This isn't a threat or an insult, just a heads up. I'd like to discuss arguments about free will, not arguments about arguments or arguments about asking questions. Sorry if this offends you.

My argument is either you can move past the question of free will or you can't, end of story. It's not even a real question since no matter the answer there are no implications. It's only purpose is as a way to clear one's mind, pondering infinity.

Why would I pose arguments to someone who admits the possibility that his big toe is in control?

Ignore me if you must, I really don't mind.

[Morality Games]

Quote by: Merge I completely agree with you here. But isn't assuming you have the ability to observe everything there is to observe a mistake as well? Aren't we left with no definite answer as far as determinism is concerned?

There is no definite answer, but the solution to that isn't 'not being determinist' so much as 'not being dogmatically determinist', or rather, 'being tentatively determinist'. The gray area with healthy emphasis on what is most likely true is usually the best position to occupy in philosophical matters such as this.

Also, I like the term provisional determinism to describe the state of the universe at the macroscopic level, where quantum phenomena seem to cancel out and events become truly deterministic -- in contrast, the microscopic level is simply 'indeterministic'.

Now, there are conceptions of free will that can be reconciled with determinism, and any of those which seem to correspond to the facts and follow sound logic are okay.

[MplsBison]

Quote by: Merge I completely agree with you here. But isn't assuming you have the ability to observe everything there is to observe a mistake as well? Aren't we left with no definite answer as far as determinism is concerned?

What's definite?


Emerpical evidence can not prove something a priori objective fact.

[MplsBison]

Quote by: Morality Games there are conceptions of free will that can be reconciled with determinism

I'll bite.

[Morality Games]

I'll bite.

The thing is, I don't personally find it worth my time to do so -- such concepts can be just as easily marked out by new terms, and in fact, may be better off defined such, as the notion of 'free will' includes unnecessary baggage that might disrupt one's ability to correctly interpret concepts working under the label 'free will'.

As a rule, I dislike hearing or seeing the word 'free will' because it is almost always accompanied by information which is senseless, disruptive, and harmful to human understanding -- it is quite frequently employed a rhetorical trick, a play to gain support by monopolizing on popular misunderstandings -- and seeing people be supportive of such a notion makes me worry about our progress as a species, if we cannot put the bits together effectively enough to form a coherent picture of how the world and will actually work.

The areas where the term bothers me the least are in fiction, which is an appropriate place for it.

[Judicator]

Quote by: WakeTFU My argument is either you can move past the question of free will or you can't, end of story. It's not even a real question since no matter the answer there are no implications. It's only purpose is as a way to clear one's mind, pondering infinity. Why would I pose arguments to someone who admits the possibility that his big toe is in control? Ignore me if you must, I really don't mind.

Lack of free will is potentially problematic for some conceptions of moral responsibility. If people don't make genuine choices, nothing they do is their fault, or really anyone's fault. Depending on how you justify punishment, this may take some of the justification away.

[Kronos]

Free will...


I believe every unforced decision a human makes is free will...
Yes there are factors that influence the decision and or the outcome, yet the decision that concludes is mine and mine alone to make...Free will.

E.G:
I make a decision whether to cross a busy road!
..factors influencing this decision

Motivation: My girlfriends at the other side!
Consequence: I take into account that this is a busy road and i might get hit by a car and get injured or die!
Determination: determination is an influence that is influenced by all other influences so, My motivation has a positive effect on my determination meaning i know that by crossing the busy road i am likely to get a reward, a big sloppy kiss from my girlfriend or maybe go back to her place and have sex or maybe I'm totally in love with her and thats motivation enough, either way I'm more determined.
Consequence has a negative effect on my determination, i don't fancy being run over or risking my life in any way.

Balance and probability: I weigh up all the pros and cons for crossing the busy road then i make my informed dicision...

I decide to Cross the road...

Now you may argue that all these factors made my mind up for me and so it was not free will, however if this were true then i wouldn't have crossed the road. Because i don't know about you but risking your life for sex or a sloppy kiss or even because of love is a most stupid thing to do indeed therefore the influencing factors would have concluded that i shouldn't cross the road and may have been screaming out for me not to do so, as logically it wasn't worth the risk... Still i went against all these factors and stupidly crossed the busy road.

Am i saying that all stupid decisions are Free-will Decisions errrm I'm not sure about that, Maybe :)

[Judicator]

Quote by: Kronos Free will... I believe every unforced decision a human makes is free will... Yes there are factors that influence the decision and or the outcome, yet the decision that concludes is mine and mine alone to make...Free will. E.G: I make a decision whether to cross a busy road! ..factors influencing this decision Motivation: My girlfriends at the other side! Consequence: I take into account that this is a busy road and i might get hit by a car and get injured or die! Determination: determination is an influence that is influenced by all other influences so, My motivation has a positive effect on my determination meaning i know that by crossing the busy road i am likely to get a reward, a big sloppy kiss from my girlfriend or maybe go back to her place and have sex or maybe I'm totally in love with her and thats motivation enough, either way I'm more determined. Consequence has a negative effect on my determination, i don't fancy being run over or risking my life in any way. Balance and probability: I weigh up all the pros and cons for crossing the busy road then i make my informed dicision... I decide to Cross the road... Now you may argue that all these factors made my mind up for me and so it was not free will, however if this were true then i wouldn't have crossed the road. Because i don't know about you but risking your life for sex or a sloppy kiss or even because of love is a most stupid thing to do indeed therefore the influencing factors would have concluded that i shouldn't cross the road and may have been screaming out for me not to do so, as logically it wasn't worth the risk... Still i went against all these factors and stupidly crossed the busy road. Am i saying that all stupid decisions are Free-will Decisions errrm I'm not sure about that, Maybe :)

People making irrational choices doesn't prove that free will exists, nor does the fact that you feel your choices are free.

You "decide" to cross a busy road, but really all that is happening is a bunch of neurons are firing in your brain, compelling you to cross the road. These neurons act according to the laws of physics, which you have no control over. Your decisions are just the result of particles acting (deterministically or nondeterministically, i don't think it really matters) according to laws.