Free Will Poll

[MplsBison]

Quote by: Merge If it does not have a cause, it is random (because to not have a cause is to be random).

If the future is not set then it is impossible for any human action to not have a cause.


The cause is always the human itself.



To imply otherwise is to imply that a human did an action that he himself did not control, which is silly if the future is not set.

[Merge]

Quote by: MplsBison If the future is not set then it is impossible for any human action to not have a cause.

It is possible through randomness. If a person randomly (and I literally mean without a cause) jumps off a bridge, that action had no cause, because it was random. The human being is not the cause, it is just the object acting.

Quote by: MplsBison The cause is always the human itself.

If by "the human itself," you mean free will, then you have yet to justify this claim. You have made it a number of times, saying that humans necessarily have free will if the future is not determined. I respond that this isn't so because randomness could also make the future undetermined. You have yet to tell me why randomness is not an option.

Quote by: MplsBison To imply otherwise is to imply that a human did an action that he himself did not control, which is silly if the future is not set.

I don't understand why you won't accept the concept of randomness. You make the claim that if the future is not set, then humans must be in control. I give you an alternative to free will (randomness) in an undetermined reality, and you just keep saying free will is the only option. You have been rejecting randomness over and over again without giving any reasons as to why.

[MplsBison]

Quote by: Merge If a person randomly (and I literally mean without a cause) jumps off a bridge, that action had no cause, because it was random.

That person chose to jump off a bridge.


It's impossible for a human to complete any meaningful action without voluntarily using his muscles.

[Merge]

Quote by: MplsBison That person chose to jump off a bridge.

I basically said "If A then B." Your response was "A is false." This doesn't prove my conditional wrong.

Quote by: MplsBison It's impossible for a human to complete any meaningful action without voluntarily using his muscles.

And what causes those muscles to move? (I don't need an actual scientifically accurate answer. I will accept any answer you give).

[MplsBison]

Quote by: Merge I basically said "If A then B." Your response was "A is false."

No, I said A was impossible, because it is.




There's no situation you can ever think of where a person is not in control of their own actions if we first assume that the future is not set.


If the future is set, then nothing matters, the entirety of all eternity is predetermined.

[MplsBison]

Quote by: Merge And what causes those muscles to move?

Voluntary control.

[Merge]

Quote by: MplsBison Voluntary control.

And what provides voluntary control?

[Tycoon]

Unforunately free will is simply an illusion. We are all physically stimulated into response. Even me typing this is just a response generated by my brain based on my senses, my memories and the physical capability of my brain.

It's a pretty good illusion though. Enjoy it.

[Merge]

Quote by: Tycoon Unforunately free will is simply an illusion. We are all physically stimulated into response. Even me typing this is just a response generated by my brain based on my senses, my memories and the physical capability of my brain. It's a pretty good illusion though. Enjoy it.

What are you basing this claim on?

[Tycoon]

On the extremely basic law of cause and effect.

Let's use the example of my answer to you that I am writing write now, which would be an example of the illusion of free will.

Everything that I see, particularly what I read you write is physically processed by my brain which processes it into a physical response.

Tiny things can also affect the way I am answering you. Things like the fact that my foot just went dead make chemical differences in my brain that could alter my mood and so my response.

An example of memory would be if I had had this conversation before. Experiencing that conversation would create a physical memory in my brain which would be called up for this conversation and so alter my response.

Cause and effect.

[MplsBison]

Quote by: Merge And what provides voluntary control?

Voluntary means you are providing the control.



If the future is not set, you are in control of your actions.


If the future is set, you are not in control of your actions.




Any attempt to complicate it more than this is a strawman.

[MplsBison]

Quote by: Tycoon Everything that I see, particularly what I read you write is physically processed by my brain which processes it into a physical response

You only responded because you chose to.



You could choose not to respond to this even though it generates a response in your brain.

[Merge]

Quote by: Tycoon On the extremely basic law of cause and effect. Let's use the example of my answer to you that I am writing write now, which would be an example of the illusion of free will. Everything that I see, particularly what I read you write is physically processed by my brain which processes it into a physical response. Tiny things can also affect the way I am answering you. Things like the fact that my foot just went dead make chemical differences in my brain that could alter my mood and so my response. An example of memory would be if I had had this conversation before. Experiencing that conversation would create a physical memory in my brain which would be called up for this conversation and so alter my response. Cause and effect.

And if I answer that one of those causes is your free will? You have given a possible account of how humans work, but you haven't actually shown that free will doesn't exist, only that it possibly doesn't. The more we learn about how the human body works the more we might be able to say we are likely determined, but until science shows us how to predict a human's every action, we can't make the empirical claim that humans are determined.

You say we are determined. I say we are not because our free will gives us the power to choose and control our lives. We have two claims but no argument.

[Tycoon]

If the future is set, you are not in control of your actions.

Unfortunately the future is set, because everything is caused by a physical response created by the law of cause and effect. Everything you do you do because of everything that occurs around you which is only occuring because of something that happened to it, so on and on back and back forever. And the same is true for the future.

[Merge]

Quote by: MplsBison Voluntary means you are providing the control. If the future is not set, you are in control of your actions. If the future is set, you are not in control of your actions. Any attempt to complicate it more than this is a strawman.

Any attempt to complicate it more than that is disproving a false dichotomy...

I was looking for "free will provides voluntary control," but that's ok. I'll rephrase the question:

What gives you the control to act voluntarily?

[MplsBison]

Causality does not mean that the future is set.


It just means that every event in the future will have a cause.

[Tycoon]

You only responded because you chose to.

I choose to because...
Edit: Strike that, I was physically stimulated to respond because...

a. I have the physical and mental capability to do so.
b. The memory of all the events in my life gives me a personality that makes me respond.
c. The physical event of me seeing your writing and everything occuring around me causes me to.

You could choose not to respond to this even though it generates a response in your brain.

No, for the same reasons listed above.

The more we learn about how the human body works the more we might be able to say we are likely determined, but until science shows us how to predict a human's every action, we can't make the empirical claim that humans are determined.

We will never have the ability to perfectly analyze a human's response because it would involved a enormous number of factors that would take millions of years to sift through.

You say we are determined. I say we are not because our free will gives us the power to choose and control our lives. We have two claims but no argument.

It is not free will though; you are being physically stimulated into response. You have a concept that makes you content because you like the belief that you are in control of your life and I am basing my argument off of the basic law of cause: effect.

[Tycoon]

It just means that every event in the future will have a cause.

A cause that was inevitable because that cause was simply the effect of another cause.

[MplsBison]

Quote by: Merge What gives you the control to act voluntarily?

It isn't given. It's a fundamental property of our existence.

[Merge]

Quote by: Tycoon We will never have the ability to perfectly analyze a human's response because it would involved a enormous number of factors that would take millions of years to sift through.

I can grant you that. But all this means is that we will never have empirical justification for making the claim that we are determined.

Quote by: Tycoon It is not free will though; you are being physically stimulated into response. You have a concept that makes you content because you like the belief that you are in control of your life and I am basing my argument off of the basic law of cause: effect.

I am as well. Cause: free will. Effect: my non-determined action, or voluntary action. There's the basic law of cause and effect.

You claim free will isn't a cause, I claim it is. Again, we have two claims but no argument.