Justin Martyr knew Christianity was bunk

[Zhavric]

The devils, accordingly, when they heard these prophetic words, said that Bacchus was the son of Jupiter, and gave out that he was the discoverer of the vine, and they number wine [or, the ass] among his mysteries; and they taught that, having been torn in pieces, he ascended into heaven. And because in the prophecy of Moses it had not been expressly intimated whether He who was to come was the Son of God, and whether He would, riding on the foal, remain on earth or ascend into heaven, and because the name of ‘foal’ could mean either the foal of an ass or the foal of a horse, they, not knowing whether He who was foretold would bring the foal of an ass or of a horse as the sign of His coming, nor whether He was the Son of God, as we said above, or of man, gave out that Bellerophon, a man born of man, himself ascended to heaven on his horse Pegasus. And when they heard it said by the other prophet Isaiah, that He should be born of a virgin, and by His own means ascend into heaven, they pretended that Perseus was spoken of. And when they knew what was said, as has been cited above, in the prophecies written aforetime, ‘Strong as a giant to run his course,’ they said that Hercules was strong, and had journeyed over the whole earth. And when, again, they learned that it had been foretold that He should heal every sickness, and raise the dead, they produced Aesculapius.” \

-Justin Martyr, First Apology, Ch. 54

The gist of the argument? Satan knew that Jesus was coming and so he made people believe in a bunch of gods prior to Jesus in an effort to get people to believe Jesus was just a copy of those earlier gods.

This, by the way, is still church doctrine on the copious similarities between the Jesus myth and earlier religious myths. The fact that Justin Martyr admits the similarities is proof enough that Jesus is plagarized in part from several different sources.

Discuss.

[phoenix_fire]

Or maybe he just knew that people like you would draw that [false] correlation and was trying to head it off. You know, our concepts of imagery are so expanding and broad that you could probably connect anything to anything. For example: I was putting together some ideas for a work of fantasy. Little did I know that when I took a Chinese literature class, I would find many of the same fantastical elements in the Chinese Xiaoshuo as I was planning on putting in my own. Now, did I intend to plagiarize from ancient Chinese fiction? No. I hadn't read any. Ever. You would probably have assumed that I did, though.

[Zeebadee]

Gee, another attempt at "serious" religious discussion by our resident over-bearing militant atheist. Well, I'm sure this one won't descend into mere religion bashing like the other 975 threads did.

One has to wonder why this guy bothers? Trolling comes to mind.

[Jack]

Please, either debate the topic or avoid the thread.

DO NOT RESPOND IN THIS THREAD TO THE PRECEDING MESSAGE. Please contact a member of the staff privately if you have any questions.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: phoenix_fire Or maybe he just knew that people like you would draw that [false] correlation and was trying to head it off.

How is the correlation false? Justin Martyr is considered a saintly church father whose writing greatly influence modern Christianity. The fact that earlier religions resemble Christianity isn't up for debate; Atheists have long pointed this out and Justin admits it. What we're debating here is Justin's lame excuse for why Jesus resembles these earlier myths. If your church father was convinced Jesus was a copy of earlier gods, why would you believe he's real?

Quote by: Zed Gee, another attempt at "serious" religious...

*sings*

Spam spam spam spam. Spam spam spam spam. Spammity Spaaaaam! Wonderful spam!

Seriously, though... what's not serious about the debate? I've offered a source and reasonable argument. Stop reading a "tone" into my posts.

[phoenix_fire]

He wasn't. The point was being made, if you read the excerpt, about correlations that people make. He wasn't attributing the formation of Christianity to these myths.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: phoenix_fire He wasn't. The point was being made, if you read the excerpt, about correlations that people make. He wasn't attributing the formation of Christianity to these myths.

Of course he wouldn't come out and say it. He had a myth to help build. Still, there's nothing confusing or muddy about the text. He clearly acknowledges that these similarities exist, but attributes them to the devil creating them prior to Christ's alleged existence... which is a terrible cop out. It's quite obvious he's trying to address the glaring similarities that obviously influenced the Christ myth.

[loser]

Of course he wouldn't come out and say it. He had a myth to help build.

I'm not sure what country Zhavric is from but I found this article very pertinent to this discussion: Winston Churchill a Myth, Sherlock Holmes Real » Outside The Beltway | OTB

"Like Motown legend Sam Cooke, today’s Brits apparently don’t know much about history.
Britons are losing their grip on reality, according to a poll out Monday which showed that nearly a quarter think Winston Churchill was a myth while the majority reckon Sherlock Holmes was real.

The survey found that 47 percent thought the 12th century English king Richard the Lionheart was a myth. And 23 percent thought World War II prime minister Churchill was made up. The same percentage thought Crimean War nurse Florence Nightingale did not actually exist. Three percent thought Charles Dickens, one of Britain’s most famous writers, is a work of fiction himself. Indian political leader Mahatma Gandhi and Battle of Waterloo victor the Duke of Wellington also appeared in the top 10 of people thought to be myths.

Meanwhile, 58 percent thought Sir Arthur Conan Doyle’s fictional detective Holmes actually existed; 33 percent thought the same of W. E. Johns’ fictional pilot and adventurer Biggles.
I suppose that, in our postmodern, poststructural world, one could argue that “myth” and “real” are mere social constructs. Things are “real” only to the extent people perceive them to be.

Mostly, though, we seem to be wasting a lot of money on education given the apparent rate at which the information is “taking.”"

This is the kind of stupefying ignorance that intelligent people must deal with today. If they believe that Gandhi and Churchill were myths and Sherlock Holmes was real, is it any wonder that they believe Jesus was a myth?

Stupid is as stupid believes.

The fact that Justin Martyr admits the similarities is proof enough that Jesus is plagarized in part from several different sources. If your church father was convinced Jesus was a copy of earlier gods, why would you believe he's real? Seriously, though... what's not serious about the debate? I've offered a source and reasonable argument. ... which is a terrible cop out. It's quite obvious he's trying to address the glaring similarities that obviously influenced the Christ myth.

Above are four statements from three posts of Zhavric (out of three) which are all blatant, downright lies. An argument is far from reasonable when you are posting lies. Opinions are one thing; purposely twisting and perverting the truth is quite another. Do you wonder why you have no one that supports you or believes anything you say, even those who are fellow atheists? Isherwood may be an atheist but he doesn't appear to be a liar. I respect him. What else is there to say?

Satan knew that Jesus was coming and so he made people believe in a bunch of gods prior to Jesus in an effort to get people to believe Jesus was just a copy of those earlier gods.

Satan's plan is still working, isn't it?

What's telling is that this had been known before the Bible was ever put down in ink.

[loser]

Justin Martyr knew Christianity was bunk

Oops, I missed the first lie told by Z...the title.

[Zhavric]

I kept deleting out the parts of your post that didn't pertain to the fact that Justin Martyr acknowledges that Jesus is a plagarized version of earlier myths, but it never arrived. The thing about being clever, loser, is that there has to be something of substance to your post, otherwise you just end up sounding, well... like you just did.

Anyway, your rules-violating posts have been reported. Please try to give us something of substance prior to being banned.

[phoenix_fire]

You're making the assumption that he was intentionally fabricating a Christian story. I suppose you're still going with the outlandish conspiracy theory that neither Jesus nor the disciples existed, that the dates of all the Gospels and Epistles were wrong, and that Christianity was invented centuries after the events it describes took place. Just so everyone else is clear. That's a whole heck of a lot of assumption based on a whole heck of a lot of supposition based on, when it comes down to it, what you would prefer to be true. A far simpler and more reasonable conclusion would be that Martyr actually believed the events to be true and was defending his sincere belief.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: phoenix_fire You're making the assumption that he was intentionally fabricating a Christian story.

Straw man. The story was already fabricated. He was just trying to get people to believe it / create different parts of the myth.

I suppose you're still going with the outlandish conspiracy theory that neither Jesus nor the disciples existed, that the dates of all the Gospels and Epistles were wrong, and that Christianity was invented centuries after the events it describes took place.

Are you referring the the thread you utterly failed to make any sort of point in? I love how some of you guys do this. I post a thread debating the existence of Jesus. You're almost completely silent on it... then, months or years later, you pretend like the thread where you got trounced/didn't even show up either didn't happen or that you gave some cogent argument there. The score, PF, is me 1, Jesus 0. The fact is that Jesus didn't exist, but that's a something we can debate elsewhere. What's relevant here is the very obvious fact Justin Martyr is keenly aware of Christianity's resemblance to earlier religions.

Please stay on topic.

Just so everyone else is clear. That's a whole heck of a lot of assumption based on a whole heck of a lot of supposition based on, when it comes down to it, what you would prefer to be true.

Not only are you off-topic, you're projecting the flaws of your own nonsensical unsupported stance as a Christian onto my argument. Knock it off, and get back on topic.

A far simpler and more reasonable conclusion would be that Martyr actually believed the events to be true and was defending his sincere belief.

Okay. Let's run with that for a moment as a hypothetical. It still evidences that Martyr knew about / accepted the fact that the Jesus story mirrored earlier pagan mythology. So, whether you believe in a cosmic jewish zombie or not, we can now both firmly agree that said cosmic jewish zombie closely resembled earlier myths.

[Maryjane]

Opinions are one thing; purposely twisting and perverting the truth is quite another. Do you wonder why you have no one that supports you or believes anything you say, even those who are fellow atheists?

Post reported. I've grown tired of your personal attacks and deraling threads. Zhavric asked for discussion. If you don't agree with the OP defend your position, is that so hard to understand?


Zhavric,
I admit I don't know much about this topic, you present an interesting opinion. I appreciate and respect PF's reply. I was hoping for more christian responses directed to the OP, falling that, I did some research. Hmmm... JM seemed confused about scripture. I'm left to wonder why so many held him in such high regard? I'll keep reading and hopefully get an explaination.

Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants (and any who were influenced by Justin's teachings) all should realize the danger in heavily relying on one who was so steeped in the philosophy of his day--especially since they can easily verify the falsity of many of his statements. And while it is commendable that Justin attempted some break away from pagan philosophy and towards the acceptance of Christ, his writings should not be accepted as the historical basis of what the true Church believed (though he did get some points correct).

Justin Martyr Saint or Apostate and Sinner?

[JLrep]

Quote by: Zhavric [indent]This, by the way, is still church doctrine on the copious similarities between the Jesus myth and earlier religious myths. The fact that Justin Martyr admits the similarities is proof enough that Jesus is plagarized in part from several different sources.

I didn't realize we were placing so much trust in the authority of Justin Martyr. And a man who is known as a Christian saint! Very interesting.

[Matt W]

Last warning. Debate, or don't post.

DO NOT RESPOND IN THIS THREAD TO THE PRECEDING MESSAGE. Please contact a member of the staff privately if you have any questions.

[HelioPrime]

There can't be debate because the OP assumes a stance that christianity is already a proven myth and all bunk.

Under that myth then yes, the text clearly shows how older myths could have been worked into the bible.

But the entire thread makes an assumption of fact that isn't proven, so it's really just a personal debate between none-theists then, since any theist isn't going to agree with the initial stance.

[Matt W]

Do you have a problem with reading the big red banner?

[HelioPrime]

How is a debate that assumes an unproven standpoint a debate then?

If no theist is going address the issue because they don't agree with the premise then why post this in the first place? The thread will only devolve into a flame war: theist's once again having to post supporting evidence for the existence of a non physical god and the none-theists demanding for physical evidence.

[phoenix_fire]

Zhavric, in order to debate the topic, it is important to understand your assumptions. I brought that up because others might not be familiar with where you're coming from on this topic. Addressing the assumptions, definitions, and stipulations is a very important part of debate, and one of the first things you do.

Now whether or what I believe is not really relevant to this discussion. The point was that, per Occam's Razor, it is far less likely that Martyr was a witting propagandist in a scam religion made up by a conspiracy than that he believed what he preached. When you say he "knew Christianity was bunk", you are implying that the coincidences of commonality convinced him that Christianity was what you think it is. But that is highly unlikely.

And I project nothing. Those who hate the Patriots will easily believe and endorse the idea that the Patriots cheated against other teams, malcontents of the current government like to claim that the President himself flew those planes into the WTC, and militant atheists like to claim that they have found "undeniable proof" against God. Don't pretend you're not biased.

[Maryjane]

Helio...I managed to find an opposing opinion with a quick google search. Have you never taken up a debate from the opposing view in an effort to educate yourself?