God and evil

[freefallife]

I have always thought that one of the greatest problems with theism is the widly held belief in an all powerful and perfect god and the existance of evil in said gods creations.

There are two basic type of evil, at least in my opinion. Physical and moral. Physical evils are involved in the very constitution of the earth and animal kingdom. There are deserts and inhospitable frozen wastelands, dangerous animals of prey, as well as creatures like scorpions and poisonous snakes. (Lets not forget that according to Genesis, every animal on Earth was placed under our rule and for our benefit) Pests like flies, fleas and the host of parasites like hookworms and tapeworms. There are various natural disasters that wreak havock on the human species. Fires, floods, volcanos, earthquakes, droughts and famine. There exists and enormous number of diseases that ravage the supposed most cherished creation of a perfect, loving god.

Examples of moral evils, or immorality, would be deciet, cruelty, cowardice, wars and atrocities. Basicly, sin, as I understand it.

The problem of evil is both real and acute. The topic of debate is this. Justify the existance of evil, both physical and moral, in the creation of a perfect, all powerful god.

[freedom13]

God and evil

The Garden of Eden and Rebelliousness
God of righteousness and Satan the Devil = The War Between Good and Evil.........

[Domino]

Regarding moral evils: those are deeds of men, and there'd be no point to the whole affair if we didn't have free will.

In general, though, what you consider to be evil are just pain and death. God knows that death is not the end, and whatever suffering we might experience in the blink of life only provides contrast for the eternity that comes afterward.

Furthermore, if the world was without evil, we'd have no way to prove our worthiness, and no motivation to improve ourselves. A world without evil is just no fun, especially for the guy who has to sit there and watch the whole thing. So, he throws in some evil, and he knows that he can make it up to us, afterward.

[freefallife]

Quote by: Domino Regarding moral evils: those are deeds of men, and there'd be no point to the whole affair if we didn't have free will.

I'm afraid you'll have to explain what free will has to do with death by some ravenging disease, famine, pestulance, earthquake, tornado. We don't chose to endure these evils through our free will. Your argument makes no sence.

In general, though, what you consider to be evil are just pain and death. God knows that death is not the end, and whatever suffering we might experience in the blink of life only provides contrast for the eternity that comes afterward.

So, because the suffering doesn't last forever it is justified? That is just plain rediculous.

A world without evil is just no fun, especially for the guy who has to sit there and watch the whole thing. So, he throws in some evil, and he knows that he can make it up to us, afterward.

This has to be one of the worst justifications of evil that I have ever heard. God causes us to suffer for his own entertainment. He gets board so he strikes us down with cancer and HIV. One would have to be delusional to worship such a malicious fiend.

[loser]

The problem of evil is both real and acute. The topic of debate is this. Justify the existance of evil, both physical and moral, in the creation of a perfect, all powerful god.

Let's think about a few words that apply to life as we know it: Spectrum, Variety, Opposite, Choice, Motivation, Change.

If there was no 'evil' in the world, would it be possible for any of these characteristics to exist? They couldn't. Life as we know it could not exist. God would be alone.

You cannot have good without evil. You cannot have dark without light. You cannot have life without death. It is the infinitely broad spectrum of life that defines existence. Without evil (and, therfore, no good), you and I would not exist. Without extremes, with just a single point going nowhere, life would be meaningless...no, it would be non-existent.

[freefallife]

Quote by: freedom13 The Garden of Eden and Rebelliousness God of righteousness and Satan the Devil = The War Between Good and Evil.........

And your point is?? Please don't clutter the thread with incomplete ideas. The topic is the justification of evil in a universe created by a perfect god. You have provided none.

[freefallife]

Quote by: loser Let's think about a few words that apply to life as we know it: Spectrum, Variety, Opposite, Choice, Motivation, Change. If there was no 'evil' in the world, would it be possible for any of these characteristics to exist? They couldn't. Life as we know it could not exist. God would be alone. You cannot have good without evil. You cannot have dark without light. You cannot have life without death. It is the infinitely broad spectrum of life that defines existence. Without evil (and, therfore, no good), you and I would not exist. Without extremes, with just a single point going nowhere, life would be meaningless...no, it would be non-existent.

Pleasure is only possible by way of contrast with pain??? So, that's like saying that if everything were blue we should, by your argument, understand neither what color is, nor what blue is. That argument is quite obviously flawed and provides no justfication for all the evils survived by the human species. The problems of evils are not reducable to one singular problem, so you're argument is simply irrelevant to much evil. Disease and insanity are evils, and yet health and sanity are possible in the total absence of disease and insanity. Furthermore, if your argument were in any way valid, it would imply the existance of only a speck of pain, not the immense amount of pain suffered in the universe. A speck of yellow is all that is needed for an appreciation of blue and of color in generally.

Can it seriously be maintained that if an individual were born crippled and deformed and never in his life expeirienced pleasure, that he could not experience pain even if seriously injured?

It is clear that pain is possible in the absence of pleasure. It may well be that it might not be distinguished by a special name and called "pain", but the state we now describe as a painfull state would nonetheless be possible in the total absence of pleasure. So too the converse would apply. Take the pleasures of taste and smell for example. The existance of these pleasures does not rely upon any prior experience of pain. By your argument, if the first thing you ever felt was pleasure, you wouln't think it felt pleasureable as you had never experienced pain and vice versa. Obviously, as I have shown, this is not the case.

[Kuldeep]

I suppose this thread is similar to one I opend sometime back "When God is Loving why so many miseries". That time conclusion drawn was that these miseries are outcome as the Reactions of our own Bad Actions.

Here, I think loser has well said that Good and Bad, right and wrong, light and darkness...etc are relative; one without the other won't exist.

As regards life and death, I won't say these are exactly same way relative but, a cyclic phenomina. God while making life on this planet had planned death also side by side. Anything which gets created or born has to have sustance, deterioration and finally disappearence and to start the cycle, creation or birth again. From this, it may deduced if death exists after birth, birth would exist after death to complete the cycle.

So, to answer the questions in the OP, I would say these evils are created to fulfill the possibility of death of all those, which are bought to life. This is just a natural course and is rational even if Universe is not created by some Perfect God. Let us consider it a eternal cycle of birth and death.

[Domino]

Quote by: freefallife I'm afraid you'll have to explain what free will has to do with death by some ravenging disease, famine, pestulance, earthquake, tornado. We don't chose to endure these evils through our free will. Your argument makes no sence.

I don't have to explain what free will has to do with those, because they are separate issues, which I addressed separately in my post. One evil is man-made, one evil is beyond our control. One can be blamed on us, the other can be blamed on God.

So, because the suffering doesn't last forever it is justified? That is just plain rediculous.

Not justified, so much as insignificant. I don't know why God would care what happens when we're alive: the party doesn't start till we're dead. We need something to chat about.

This has to be one of the worst justifications of evil that I have ever heard. God causes us to suffer for his own entertainment. He gets board so he strikes us down with cancer and HIV. One would have to be delusional to worship such a malicious fiend.

If he'd given us a perfect lala land, what's the point? Might as well just skip the world and go to heaven. A game without conflict is no fun. A world without hardship has no success.

Let's suppose that we all started in heaven. After half an eternity, we got bored, asked God for something to do. He gave us the world. We come down, we play, we go back. While we play, we don't remember that it's just a game, but we are reminded, every now and then. Your character just flew through the windshield, better luck next time!

That said, it's all a mystery to me, and far be it from me to determine the will of God. You'd be better off asking him.

[ItsDarts]

I agree with Freefall, these are the worst justifications for evil (suffering) in the world. Lets take the analogy of without evil there is no good..... NONSENSE!!!!!!!! The other options is "indifference". I'm sitting here typing and I don't feel particularly good and I'm not suffering. I just "am". In contrast, if I were to have a few beers, I may feel more pleasure than I currently feel, which is just "normal". I live my life for the most part in this state, as many of us here do when ever we type on Volconvo. I suspect that tonight, (friday night) many of us will be feeling a bit more pleasure as we drink our beers and play on Volconvo or where ever. THe point is there are "degrees of pain and pleasure". Why would a perfect, all mighty creator of the universe, subject us to greater degrees of pain to the point of death, but not provide us with equal degrees of pleasure to the point of death? I never heard of anyone dying from too much pleasure, but if its possible, thats the way I want to go. So in conclusion, the "without evil, there is no good argument" fails in light of the fact that an all powerful, all benevolent god could stop things like birthdefects, disease, natural disasters etc...

We could say, without God, there is no devil and all pain and pleasure is just a result of our evolution.

[freedom13]

Quote by: freefallife And your point is?? Please don't clutter the thread with incomplete ideas. The topic is the justification of evil in a universe created by a perfect god. You have provided none.

No, my point is that the thread should be good and evil or God and Satan. God and evil doesn't make logical sense without the Satanism.

My next point is that your whole entire argument is base on Satanism and Rebelliousness against the God of righteous. The bible indicated that God cause evil upon those who rebelled against righteousness.

So therefore, the justification for evil is rebelliousness.

The following makes some interesting points:

The Psychology of Self-Justification http://www.mckenziestudycenter.org/l.../selfjust.html In Genesis 3, the serpent's distortion of God's command against eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil set in motion humanity's rebellion against God. In choosing to eat the forbidden fruit, Adam and Eve sought to establish their own moral boundaries and abrogate the authority of God. Instead of winning the false freedom and autonomy they desired, Adam and Eve suffered death, and were confronted with the reality of their own moral failure. In experiencing their own sin, Adam and Eve had a choice. They could have openly faced the horror of their evil unbelief, sought out God, confessed their sin and pleaded for mercy. In their guilt, however, they hid from God as they heard Him approaching. Using fig leaves, they hid from their nakedness. In responding to God's inquiry, they hid from the truth of their moral failure. Adam justified his actions by blaming Eve. Eve followed suit by blaming the serpent. In seeking justification from God, Adam and Eve were asking God to give them something evil. They wanted God to acquit them of any responsibility for their actions and agree with them that their behavior was someone else's responsibility, not theirs. They were asking God to look at reality differently and join them in their self-deception. Adam and Eve did not want justification that comes from having been forgiven. They wanted justification from God because they were evil and hoped to hide from the truth about themselves. They deflected responsibility for their actions onto another in order to hide from the psychological discomfort of being exposed to the reality of their moral failure. They hoped that God would play along with their charade, see things their way, acquit them of any wrongdoing, and make their moral failure--and their discomfort--go away. In seeking a justification that hid from the truth of their moral failure, Adam and Eve failed to express any genuine humility. They did not want to deal with the real consequences of their own choices. In doing so, they demonstrated a subtle but undeniable attitude of arrogance, a rebellious clenched fist directed at God. The term "justify" in the scriptures can be defined as "justify, vindicate, treat as just, acquit, pronounce or treat as righteous, make or set free from". Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Colin Brown. In plain terms to be justified by God is to be declared having moral right standing. It is not a position of innocence. It is a position of having righteousness attributed to me in spite of my guilt. In contrast, self-justification is the presumption of moral right standing on terms other than Gods as a way of hiding from ones own moral failure. It is the belief that whatever offenses may have been committed ought not to stand in the way of God's granting approval. The psychology of self-justification is the internal process operating to accomplish that end. A parable Jesus tells in Luke 14 exposes a striking resemblance between Adam and Eve's attempt to justify their rebelliousness and the motivation behind the behavior exhibited by certain guests at a Sabbath brunch. The gospel narratives portray an uncommon degree of hostility shown towards Jesus by the lawyers and Pharisees. Hoping to find fault, every possible opportunity was taken to test and trap Him. Jesus was a problem to the lawyers and Pharisees on two levels. First, He undermined their respect and authority with the people. Before Jesus came along, the common people had respected them, looking to the lawyers and Pharisees as the theologically correct ones who could interpret God's Law to them. But Jesus claimed to be from God; He performed miracles; He fed the multitudes; He healed people on the Sabbath; He associated with sinners; and He became more popular with the people. Jesus was not impressed or intimidated by the lawyers and Pharisees, and He did not give them the respect they were used to. Secondly, on a deeper, personal level, Jesus challenged the lawyers and Pharisees' false perspective about God, themselves, and others.

[Rainbow]

Quote by: freefallife Justify the existance of evil, both physical and moral, in the creation of a perfect, all powerful god.

The atom's structure.

[ItsDarts]

Quote by: freedom13 No, my point is that the thread should be good and evil or God and Satan. God and evil doesn't make logical sense without the Satanism. My next point is that your whole entire argument is base on Satanism and Rebelliousness against the God of righteous. The bible indicated that God cause evil upon those who rebelled against righteousness. So therefore, the justification for evil is rebelliousness. The following makes some interesting points:

A&E never existed if Evolution is true (and it is) thus, the A&E story is pointless in this argument. Please define Satanism, because the Satanism that I know of doesn't believe in a deity called Satan, but rather a force of nature with Pagan roots.

If we get back to your god, who is all powerful, why couldn't he get rid of the satan of the bible? How does this support any "justification" for the evil (suffering) in the world? Please stick to the subject at hand or stay out of the thread.

[freedom13]

Quote by: ItsDarts A&E never existed if Evolution is true (and it is) thus, the A&E story is pointless in this argument. Please define Satanism, because the Satanism that I know of doesn't believe in a deity called Satan, but rather a force of nature with Pagan roots. If we get back to your god, who is all powerful, why couldn't he get rid of the satan of the bible? How does this support any "justification" for the evil (suffering) in the world? Please stick to the subject at hand or stay out of the thread.

No, Satanism is your way of thinking, and that the point of the threads.

[ItsDarts]

Quote by: freedom13 No, Satanism is your way of thinking, and that the point of the threads.

That's your opinion, that's not debating.

[Rainbow]

Quote by: ItsDarts A&E never existed if Evolution is true (and it is) thus, the A&E story is pointless in this argument. Please define Satanism, because the Satanism that I know of doesn't believe in a deity called Satan, but rather a force of nature with Pagan roots. If we get back to your god, who is all powerful, why couldn't he get rid of the satan of the bible? How does this support any "justification" for the evil (suffering) in the world? Please stick to the subject at hand or stay out of the thread.

I can polemize with your statement. I am afraid you would have no choice but to concede.

I would rather concentrate on the following phrase :

If we get back to your god, who is all powerful, why couldn't he get rid of the satan of the bible?

Is there any atom with no electron(s) - in its state of existence, within the Universe we live-in ?
Hint :
Everything - in the Universe we live-in, is based on state of opposition. Otherwise, the Universe does Not exist.

[JLrep]

Quote by: Rainbow I can polemize with your statement. I am afraid you would have no choice but to concede.

This would be quite a thing to see.

[freefallife]

Quote by: Rainbow Is there any atom with no electron(s) - in its state of existence, within the Universe we live-in ? Hint : Everything - in the Universe we live-in, is based on state of opposition. Otherwise, the Universe does Not exist.

Your argument suggests that evil and good are in a perfect state of ballanced opposition, like the positive and negative forces within the atom. But what of the neutron?? If everything in the universe requires a state of opposition, where is the neutrons? So required opposition is simply not the case. Furthermore there are a multitude of evils in the world that your argument fails to address. Those that have no physical or morally good opposition. The death of innocent newborn children, for just one example. Also, as I stated before, a speck of yellow is all that is needed for an appreciation of blue. The balanced forces within the atom or anything else for that matter does not mean that it is necessary for every system of life. Besides, there is far more pain in the world than pleasure. Thus your argument fails.

Imagine if your argument were valid. Any increase in the worlds overall good, would create more evil. There would be no reason for any of us to attempt to make the world better. The example works in the opposite as well. There would be no reason whatsoever to try to rid the world of evil because, according to your argument, it would require the reduction of good in the world, thus making the world worse.

As I have shown, there is no ballance required between good and evil and furthermore, there is the neutral possibility of neither pain nor pleasure...like the neutron.

[freefallife]

Quote by: freedom13 No, my point is that the thread should be good and evil or God and Satan. God and evil doesn't make logical sense without the Satanism.

The thread makes perfect sence. If a perfect god created everything, then a perfect god created evil. There is simply no justification for it. Take Adam and Eve. Why would a perfect, all knowing god bother to put a forbidden fruit that would condemn all of humanity within the reach of his fallible creations. Wait...lemme guess....free will right?

[JLrep]

I really don't see the need for brashly attempting to determine just what quantity of evil gives meaning to what quantity of good, or of the peculiar atom analogy. Where is the neutron, indeed.

No, it all comes down to free will, which I know you are tired of hearing. God made everything good; he did not create evil. He made human beings with free will, and with that free will we decided to sin and turn away from Him. In our sin we tainted all the world with sin. For our sin we deserve nothing but punishment and death, but God in mercy sent Jesus to redeem us of all sin.